002 Let’s Not Label Things, Babe: Relationships, Labels, Sex, and Consent

Hey! Have you heard about the latest STI epidemic?! It’s called “feelings,” and if you don’t dehumanize the people you’re sleeping with, you might catch it! This week we bitch about the bad consent created in sexual and romantic situations by terrible, deceptive communication (both intentional and unintentional) masked as people “not knowing what they want.”

 

Episode 002 Blog Graphic

In This Episode

POPPIN’ OFF (AKA POP TOPS) (1:40)

We talk about the unbelievable scourge of liberals online being nice to and defensive of billionaires (namely, Bloomberg and Besos), Nichole’s frustration with “good person” narratives in film and TV for boring-ass white people, and how these two things connect.

JOKE (53:30)

Have you heard about the new dry erase board?

ADVICE (1:08:35)

We answer an older question from a VWPA listener who asked for advice about starting a vegan group, which we expand out to give advice on starting any kind of social and/or activism based group. (Thanks, Denise!)

Main Topic: LABELS, RELATIONSHIPS, SEX and CONSENT

(1:29:00)
We have a VERY LONG conversation (way #offbrand, we know) about this topic of the bad consent that results from the fuckery that goes into dating in a way that we haven’t really heard other people talk about before.

We talk about the ways people are stigmatized, especially female and femme folks, who know what they want and are comfortable saying so early on, which cultivates an atmosphere of shame, fear, and embarrassment around open communication.

In an environment where a recent Millennial survey revealed that a significant percentage of Millennials reported that they don’t have best friends, close friends, or, in a shocking number of cases, any real friends at all. So, it makes sense that we are all seeking intimacy of some kind, and also makes sense that we may not have the skills to properly navigate relationships or interactions with other people. But to deny a desire for intimacy, claim that you only want sex or you “don’t know what you want” but then to text the other person every single day or display confusing behavior that is intimacy seeking, is shitty.

Not being ready for a relationship or not currently looking for one doesn’t mean it’s ok to masturbate with someone else’s body (unless that is what BOTH parties are into and it’s negotiated ahead of time) and treat them like trash in order to avoid having any feelings whatsoever. At the end of the day, you are doing things to someone else’s body and that requires at least a basic level of compassion and communication.

If we don’t use ALL of our relationships and interactions to practice the foundations of what makes good partnerships, then we’re totally fucked the day we do CATCH THE DREADED FEELINGS. We’ll fuck up a good thing, or unnecessarily hurt someone in a way that could’ve been avoided, or make ourselves sick with drama that didn’t need to happen. A one night stand can still teach you a lot about mutual respect that can be applied to longer engagements with other people.

If you want a truly zero strings situation, wank off! Or find situations where zero strings can be negotiated safely, like sex clubs or hookup apps (where you make your intentions 100% clear). Whatever you do, it should include explicit consent from all parties involved. In situations where you meet someone and you’re hanging out and some kind of ongoing interaction is occurring, then some level of open communication, mutual respect, and clear consent not just for the sex you’re having but the structure of your interactions have been given and received.

Also: EMOTIONAL DRY-HUMPING.


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Transcript

Nichole [00:00:27] Hey everyone, I’m Nichole.

Callie [00:00:28] And I’m Callie.

Nichole [00:00:29] And today we’re bitching about…

Callie [00:00:31] I forgot that was our opening!

Nichole [00:00:33] I knew you forgot. Somehow I just knew. I was like, I’m going to say it and she’s gonna go, what?!

Callie [00:00:38] It like, delighted me all over again.

Nichole [00:00:41] Well that’s yeah, that’s the beauty of the work that we do.

Callie [00:00:43] Yeah. This week we are bitching about people not wanting to use labels in dating situations and how it’s actually practicing really bad consent.

Nichole [00:00:55] Yes.

Callie [00:00:55] And this is going to probably piss some of y’all off.

Nichole [00:00:58] That’s okay.

Callie [00:00:59] We don’t give a fuck.

Nichole [00:01:00] Yeah.

Callie [00:01:00] It needs to be said.

Nichole [00:01:01] Yeah. We’re gonna try to do our fresh take on it by focusing on consent, but we’re definitely going to veer into just generally bitching about dating. And of course, adding an anti-capitalist perspective to the whole shebang.

Callie [00:01:14] Absolutely.

Nichole [00:01:14] So.

Callie [00:01:15] Yeah.

Nichole [00:01:15] Come along for the cathartic ride because who doesn’t fucking hate dating?

Callie [00:01:19] Right. Especially in this new hellscape of online dating and all the apps.

Nichole [00:01:26] Yes. And all the apps.

Callie [00:01:29] And fuckboys.

Nichole [00:01:29] We just found out there’s 8000 dating sites.

Callie [00:01:31] Oh yeah.

Nichole [00:01:32] Like what?

Callie [00:01:34] I know, I thought there were like four. Cause you only ever really hear about like the main ones, you know.

Nichole [00:01:40] Yeah. I just, I don’t even know. So our first segment, our dear friend Asia helped us name it Poppin Off.

Callie [00:01:50] Yeah, could not be more perfect.

Nichole [00:01:51] But I’m also giving it alternative names of Pop Top because we’re gonna be popping off about topics. Topical topics, right?

Callie [00:02:01] Topical topics?

Nichole [00:02:04] Yeah. Not just topics. But what is topical?

Callie [00:02:08] Oh my god.

Nichole [00:02:11] And then I am still retaining, I came up with PC Watch.

Callie [00:02:15] OK!

Nichole [00:02:16] Because I saw a whole thing about politically correct actually originally meant to publicize, it was for the media. It’s basically like the Ministry of Truth in 1984, it was about the media doing what was politically correct and not what was actually factual. But what is the, like what are the politics that we’re promoting, and how do you report on them in a way that’s politically correct even if it means like saying something that’s not accurate or true.

Callie [00:02:45] Ohh..

Nichole [00:02:45] So I like the idea that for more political topics that we’re like, because I think that’s what we’ll do, right?

Callie [00:02:51] Yeah.

Nichole [00:02:52] That’s what we’re gonna do today, is talk about something that’s being spun, or things that are being spun in a certain way but it’s actually to like, creating a false narrative. So we’ve got a lot of, a lot of options there.

Callie [00:03:06] Yeah.

Nichole [00:03:06] But popping off is the official.

Callie [00:03:07] I like that. I think it was just that, because I liked the whole PC thing, I just didn’t like the idea-

Nichole [00:03:11] Police, yeah.

Callie [00:03:11] Even ironically of using cop, because fuck the police.

Nichole [00:03:16] Right. Yeah, and I was like Vanguard or whatever. So Watch was a word I kind of like.

Callie [00:03:20] Yeah, I kind of like that. But poppin off is just so adorable.

Nichole [00:03:24] It’s great. It’s just like, the mood of this segment.

Callie [00:03:25] It is the mood. And honestly, it will be very accurate. Like it will just be us kind of venting and ranting about a thing.

Nichole [00:03:38] Yeah. That’s why I also like Pop Top.

Callie [00:03:39] Yeah, it’s great.

Nichole [00:03:42] And Pop Tarts. Maybe we’re talking about something a little racy. Little saucy.

Callie [00:03:46] Yeah.

Nichole [00:03:46] Popping off about it, yeah. Lot of options there.

Callie [00:03:50] Yeah.

Nichole [00:03:50] So today.

Callie [00:03:51] So today will be kind of a quick one because like I just really want to vent.

Nichole [00:03:58] Ha, famous last words by the way, for new listeners. Who are like, bitches we saw your three hour episode as your first.

Callie [00:04:03] I know. Yeah.

Nichole [00:04:04] Yeah. But yes.

Callie [00:04:04] Yeah, today I just, I don’t really want to go in-depth about anything in particular. Like I know this segment will really kind of usually be us like talking about a pop top, a very topical topic.

Nichole [00:04:21] Topical topic!

Callie [00:04:22] And it’s kind of like talking about it in all these angles and stuff. Today I really just want to like bitch about fucking rich perverts and how much of the population is like up their fucking asses. And it’s so nauseating to me that I, it’s like making it really hard to be as person on the internet because I cannot believe how much we have chosen to like, stand for these fucking rich people that do not care about you and would not, like are actively burning the world down and y’all are still talking about them as if you’re like defending your family member. And it’s gross to me, like it’s so gross. So Jeff Bezos, big in the news over the last week. He just bought the most expensive property in L.A. with an eighth of a percent of his net income. Y’all. This is equivalent to if you make $60000 a year, that’s like spending seventy five dollars on a house. He just bought the most expensive property for what to you would be a nice dinner out.

Nichole [00:05:37] Good god.

Callie [00:05:38] And like people are really still out here defending this fucking maniac, like as if he earned his money. If I hear one more fucking person defend rich people that they earned their money, you do not earn a billion dollars, you fucking steal it. I’m sorry. I’m sorry to tell you. That’s how it goes. Profits are the unpaid wages of workers. Like stop defending these fucking people. And so this segment today, we’re popping off about just rich people in general and how much people are defending them. Because also in the news a lot this past week is about Bloomberg, and how well he’s doing in the election all of a sudden and how he’s literally buying off everyone and their fuckin mom, like trying to steal this election.

Callie [00:06:39] He is also a piece of trash who’s done terrible, terrible things. Exploited thousands of people and was a Republican up to like the end of 2018. Like to put this in perspective, I saw someone else talking about this too, he was still a registered Republican during the Kavanaugh hearings. If that helps you, because I know sometimes like trying to figure out like times is difficult. But like, that’s how recent it is. And he thinks he’s gonna come in after an entire year of watching candidates and doing debates and all this shit, just like walk away with this thing, by paying people off. So, like, can we just, I know this is a leftist show, and I’m sure most of the people listening are already leftist and don’t need to hear me say this. But like, can we just please stop supporting these fucking rich assholes? Have some fucking class solidarity because you are much closer to being destitute and poor than you are ever reaching even a fraction of their wealth.

Nichole [00:07:49] And that’s by design.

Callie [00:07:51] It’s by design! But people are really still out of your thinking like, oh, well, I don’t want to like come for them, because if I ever make a lot of money, I want to be able to keep it. It’s like, first of all, that’s not going to happen. Let go of that dream.

Nichole [00:08:07] Yeah. And like, honestly, you’re kind of an asshole if that’s how you feel. And I don’t mean it like, I get it. I think that I maybe… I never wanted to be like rich like that, but I definitely had this sense of like, oh, I want to be able to earn a lot someday, right, and like, have it and like, earn it. And, you know, I’ve dismantled that now to the point where I’m like, like I actively would not, I just would give it away.

Callie [00:08:39] Yeah!

Nichole [00:08:40] Like, I just would like not even have it in my possession. So I’m like, you are an asshole. But like a lot of us have been there. It’s not in a way that makes you a monster. But like, seriously, you know, because I have friends that I’ve kind of said this to somewhat recently where they’re like, well, I’ve made my first million yet, so I’m not successful. And I’m like, honestly, that’s fucking gross. Like, it’s gross that you want to make that much and keep it to yourself.

Callie [00:09:04] Yeah. Yeah.

Nichole [00:09:05] And I’m like, and I love you. Like you’re a good person. You’re my friend. I care about you. I know, good person is loaded. Oh my god, what was I watching? I’m going to distract myself for a second. But oh, I finished reading… Forgive me, but I finished reading Breakfast With Buddha. And I haven’t reviewed on Goodreads yet but my Goodreads review is going to be like, “White middle-class neoliberals will love it.” Because the whole story… And I watch some TV show too, and I’m blanking on which one. But anyway, I’m so tired, the whole storyline is basically around, first of all, enlightenment. But for like a middle-class person which is already fucking gross. It’s like, yeah, you feel spiritually destitute because like you’re buying into all this neoliberal bullshit. You don’t necessarily need a guru to come in and teach you… Anyway. But it’s really centered around like this middle-class white guy and his concern, you know, he donates to the right things and he has his like, 2.5 kids and a good job and like, but he just sometimes worries that he’s not like a good enough person. And then this, you know-

Callie [00:10:29] He probably isn’t.

Nichole [00:10:29] He’s not. And I’m reading the book and I’m like, yeah you’re kind of, like it’s so interesting to me. So they’re just small things in the book, but like at one point there’s this yoga teacher who’s Asian or half, part Asian and just the way he describes her like, Asian-ness. And then he does this thing multiple times in the book where there’s a woman’s name and he doesn’t hear it correctly so he calls her by like three different names. And it’s supposed to be funny but he only does it with women.

Callie [00:11:00] Oh my god.

Nichole [00:11:00] And I’m like, see?

Callie [00:11:01] Yeah.

Nichole [00:11:03] Anyway, so, yeah, the whole thing is like he takes this road trip. He gets tricked into taking this long road trip with a monk who’s not like, of course, of any particular denomination but like a mishmash of like a bunch of stuff. And the monk just like even from the get-go, he’s like really hostile towards this monk and like is very rejecting of anything, you know, new agey or woo or whatever, you know, he would classify it as. And he’s just like, and the monk’s just like, I can tell you’re a good person, you’re a good man. And I’m like, based on fucking what?! And I’m just really tired of mediocre people, especially white people, needing someone to come in and tell them that they’re good. It’s like you’re fine, you’re normy. That is probably enough for you. But don’t make other people swim into your life just to be like, you’re really a good person underneath it all. I think it was Sex Education, the second season was so fucking good.

Callie [00:12:05] I just finished it! We haven’t even talked about it yet.

Nichole [00:12:08] Oh, we haven’t even talked about it.

Callie [00:12:10] No, I just binged both seasons like this week.

Nichole [00:12:13] Yeah.

Callie [00:12:14] It’s so good.

Nichole [00:12:15] I loved it. I fucking love that show.

Callie [00:12:20] I can’t believe I forgot to tell you. I was gonna like polo you and then I, you know.

Nichole [00:12:24] Yeah. Life happens.

Callie [00:12:25] Yeah.

Nichole [00:12:26] But the only criticism I had was I felt like the second season was like spending too much time, or any time at all, with you know, the kind of main character. That show does a really good job of, like it’s an ensemble cast and like everyone gets pretty much equal time. But, you know, the person you could say is like the main character is this like fuckin, you know, white dude teenager. And like he’s being a dick, but then people are like, oh, I know you’re really a good person underneath. Like you’re actually a good person, and it’s like based on what? Like we haven’t actually seen, I’m just so tired of like these flat people getting to feel like they’re special and that there’s something like inherently good about them when they just lead these mediocre lives that stand for nothing.

Nichole [00:13:15] And I’m not saying everyone has to be out here being a fuckin hero. I get it, like I get we’re conditioned. Like average is a word on purpose. Like there’s always gonna be like average people. But just this sense that, like, people can’t just be chill being average. They have to like be special and be told that they’re good even though they don’t actually do anything. They don’t risk any emotional intimacy, they don’t risk anything vulnerably, they don’t risk their like jobs or positions to like stand for anything, they don’t risk their physical being. And again, that’s a big ask. I get it. Like I walk that line, too. I could probably risk a lot more and I don’t. But like, you’re not out here actually doing anything and it’s like basically, if you’re not, like, out here murdering people, then everyone’s like, you’re good. And honestly, we have shows like Dexter where even if you are murdering people, people are like, oh, but he’s really a good guy on the inside.

Callie [00:14:08] Yeah. I think what it is, is I think it’s another example of how much capitalism has infiltrated our way of thinking. Because I don’t think it really means that the person is good. I think it’s a way of being like you’re a valid person, like you are a being. Right, deserving of like, I see you and like you’re not fucking terrible. So it’s like we’ve replaced this, like, oh, like I see you as like a life deserving of like autonomy and happiness and safety and all this stuff and like, I appreciate parts of you, into like you’re good, you’re bad. Because we say people are good even when they’re not good. You know? And that’s why I like you and I used to rant all the time on VWPA about this way we, fucked up way we have of looking at reputation and how reputation has become this thing that’s like divorced from a person. And it’s like your reputation is based on the things you do or don’t do. But people will be like, oh, well, he’s a good guy. And it’s like well he did this terrible fucking thing so like, he’s not. You know?

Nichole [00:15:21] Yeah, or he didn’t do a terrible thing but he’s just like a fucking blah person who’s like, not…

Callie [00:15:27] Yeah.

Nichole [00:15:27] That’s the thing is most people get up and go to work and they like date and have their little normy lives, and like, fine because that’s what makes the world go round, right. But like then they like need someone to come along and tell them that they’re good and special and it’s like but you’re fucking not. What are you doing in your life? What are you risking? What are you stretching within yourself? Like what are you actually doing that makes you think. But it’s like this idea that we all have to be inherently good and special to be worthy.

Callie [00:15:57] Yeah. Or valuable even.

Nichole [00:15:59] Or valuable. Or just like to not feel so fucking bored. And it’s like, but you need to create that for yourself. You shouldn’t have, I mean this book was ridiculous. Like he’s correcting this guy’s English and this guy speaks eleven languages. But every time he like, he was like swapping like Ls with Ws so he’d say like “life” as “wife” and the guy would be like, “It’s Life with an L.” And then the monk is like, oh you’re a good person on the inside.

Callie [00:16:31] Sounds like a dick to me.

Nichole [00:16:33] Yeah. And he was. He was your typical like middle-aged academic, middle-class white dude who like hasn’t really been challenged in his life and has a comfortable life and everything’s worked out for him. And it’s like this fucking white guilt. This is the thing is like, I do think you have a point. But I think it, to me, it’s more insidious that it’s like white people who’ve never been challenged. And they need someone to come along and tell them that they’re still special and deserving and that everything good they have in their life, it’s because they’re good and not because they’re privileged.

Callie [00:17:09] Oh, shit. Yeah, yeah.

Nichole [00:17:10] Yeah. That’s why I’m like going hard on the normies right now. Cause I am fucking fired up in general.

Callie [00:17:16] Yeah. No, I… Well forget what I said. That’s way more accurate, yeah.

Nichole [00:17:19] But that’s what I see. Like Sex Education. Like the show is so good. But there’s so many complex, like interesting characters who are actually trying to be better or trying to be different. And I just noticed that the main character kind of fell into this trap where he’s not actually trying to be better, he’s just doing a bunch of shitty things and then like flailing around for people to be like, oh, well, you’re still good on the inside. Right, like you’re not actually growing, you’re just having a bunch people telling you constantly that you’re good and that like someday you’ll grow into that goodness. Like just kind of inherently without having to work at it and that we’re all always here for you no matter how shitty you are, because we know that you’re good. It’s like the Darth Vader disease, right? Like I can sense the good in him. And so he doesn’t actually have to do anything except on his deathbed be like, hey son! Right?

Callie [00:18:10] Yeah. My bad!

Nichole [00:18:10] Yep, peace! I’m going to die now so I don’t have to process anything.

Callie [00:18:16] Yeah, I did this thing. Yeah, well and that’s why it got so messed – spoiler alert for like Episode 9.

Nichole [00:18:21] That’s a deep cut. That’s actually not a deep cut.

Callie [00:18:24] No. No actually.

Nichole [00:18:25] It’s like a very surface level abrasion.

Callie [00:18:28] Yeah. But like the fact that, you know, Kylo Ren died at the end, I really thought-

Nichole [00:18:35] Oh shit, you went Kylo.

Callie [00:18:36] Oh yeah.

Nichole [00:18:37] I was just stickin Darth. That is a spoiler alert.

Callie [00:18:38] Oh, no. Well that’s why I said it. No, but I really thought it would have made for a really interesting, because that’s such a basic ending, right? Like you’re letting the bad guy get off in the end with like this hero, hero-like death. And then he doesn’t really ever have to like atone or face any of the consequences.

Nichole [00:18:59] Or process it.

Callie [00:18:59] Or process it. And I really thought it would’ve been interesting if like he did, you know, save her and then she’s like, all right, you know, like, these are my friends. You actively tried to murder them.

Nichole [00:19:12] Yeah. You committed genocide. You’ve killed children so…

Callie [00:19:15] You’re going to have to work out your issues. OR no, I’m not going to date your ass because you’re actually a real bad guy. Like, I’m glad you’re not anymore and thanks for saving my life, but also, like, peace out. Because I got these two hot guys I’ma join a threesome with who did not try to murder me.

Nichole [00:19:33] Yes!!! Fuck yes.

Callie [00:19:36] Or make it a quadruple and have Rose be involved. They could just have this cute little family unit.

Nichole [00:19:48] Sister wives, brother husbands. All of it.

Callie [00:19:48] Right? Just all the things.

Nichole [00:19:48] Sign me up for that shit.

Callie [00:19:48] But yeah, it would be so much more interesting, right, to see people have to actually like-

Nichole [00:19:53] Yeah. Like here’s the name of a good therapist.

Callie [00:19:55] Come back and deal with their, the things that they did wrong. But we, we’re not comfortable with that.

Nichole [00:19:59] Yeah. And it’s just also just – I had no idea we were gonna get into this.

Callie [00:20:02] No, I didn’t either.

Nichole [00:20:03] It’s also this idea of like how we handle the patriarchy where… Exactly, like a man, and I think this can extend to other situations and genders, but I think like the archetype of this is like a white dude. Of like, the man cannot be better without having people constantly who will not leave his side, who are like, you are good. And you will face no consequences once you realize that you’re good and stop the bad behavior. But realistically, that isn’t how, like people are not owed to stick around to help you on your journey once you’ve hurt them. You know, like hopefully we can practice restorative justice in, like, wishing each other well or giving paths to redemption that like someone can actually, that makes sense and aren’t just punitive for like, quote-unquote, justice sake. But that doesn’t mean that like, this chorus of people just telling you you’re good, even though you’ve like, absolutely done nothing to evidence that, is the only…

Nichole [00:21:13] Because that’s the idea we have, right? Like we can’t leave men on their own or else they’re going to become mass shooters or serial killers or fucking rapists or whatever. So like we have to, like, be with them and like confirm that they’re good all the time and put our own needs aside. And yeah, it would have been powerful to see Rey be like, hey, I wish you well. I sensed the good in you. I’m glad you found it. I’m gonna peace out now cause you tried to, like, kill my, everyone I care about. And you were like, pretty fucking, you were negging me there for a while and I don’t appreciate that.

Callie [00:21:52] I would pay good money to have seen that conversation go down.

Nichole [00:21:57] Like, I see your pickup artist bullshit and I’m not having it. But like, best of luck, you know?

Callie [00:22:03] Be like, no I’m not going to fucking sleep with you, like you called me nothing to my face. Get out of here!

Nichole [00:22:08] Right! Yeah, and then her and the resistance can come up with like how can we-

Callie [00:22:16] Yeah.

Nichole [00:22:16] You know, what is his path? Like, can we use him? You know, like can there, can we start to very gradually build some trust here and can you help our movement and like make some reparations for what he did? That would be awesome.

Callie [00:22:34] “You negged me!” I don’t know why, but that’s just really killing me.

Nichole [00:22:37] Yeah.

Callie [00:22:37] Yeah.

Nichole [00:22:38] But yeah, it’s just for her to be like, oh I have to take… Cause that’s what I love so much about The Last Jedi. Again, I fuckin stand for that movie. But that’s what I liked about it is because you thought that that was the path we’re going down. Right, that like she’s the only one who senses good in him and so she has to tie her whole existence to his in order to like bring him around. When in the end she saw like, oh, you’re not gonna be my partner, you’re not going to meet me here. Like you’re bad and you’re trying to get me to be bad, too. And I need to just walk away from this and like, go try to, like, save my people. And like, if I’m going to die over there, then I’m gonna die over there doing the right thing and not just be like having hot Jedi sex with you. Because we know Adam Driver can lay that shit down. OK?

Callie [00:23:28] I’m going to need the internet to stop showing me constant Adam Driver memes and clips and pictures.

Nichole [00:23:35] The ones with his voice, like him saying things. I can’t. I can’t do it.

Callie [00:23:41] They need to stop. Yeah. Just when I think I’m like coming out the other side of it-

Nichole [00:23:44] We all love a bad boy.

Callie [00:23:45] Then I hear some… Drags me right back in.

Nichole [00:23:47] Yeah.

Callie [00:23:48] And I don’t appreciate it.

Nichole [00:23:49] Yeah. And when it does, let me tell you, the force is strong with this one, OK?

Callie [00:23:53] It’s becoming a real problem.

Nichole [00:23:56] Hoo! That fiery, big old red lightsaber of his? Yes, daddy. I want it.

Callie [00:24:01] Well, and then someone made a graphic the other day, which this kind of thing usually doesn’t do it for me. But someone made a graphic where I guess it was a scene from him in the marriage story where he’s like sitting at the table with like a jar of baby food with like a, the high chair next to him. But it was Baby Yoda in the high chair and I was like, how fucking dare you to put-

Nichole [00:24:24] No! Was he like, go to bed? And Baby Yoda is like, I’m thirsty.

Callie [00:24:28] I’m like, how dare you put these two, like, amazing beings together?

Nichole [00:24:34] I want them both to be real, and be in my life.

Callie [00:24:37] Yeah. I was like simultaneously, my heart and uterus contracted, like seeing that picture. And I was like, this is not OK.

Nichole [00:24:43] That’s too much organ contraction-

Callie [00:24:47] No.

Nichole [00:24:48] For anyone to bear.

Callie [00:24:49] Yeah.

Nichole [00:24:49] OK?

Callie [00:24:50] I don’t know how we started talking about all of this, but.

Nichole [00:24:53] Uh, you know, just redemption arcs. And standing up for people who don’t deserve it. Can we just stop? Because I honestly think, this probably all sounded very unrelated, but I actually do think that it’s related that we have to like uphold the sense of like, people’s inherent value, but in the wrong way. It’s like the same people who don’t think people deserve, quote-unquote, freebies or handouts, will also say that you need to be polite to a fucking billionaire and that that person earned what they have and do not see the irony in that. Like how inherently fucked up that is.

Callie [00:25:32] Right. Or that you shouldn’t be like rude about Republicans or literal Nazis, you know?

Nichole [00:25:40] Literal Nazis.

Callie [00:25:41] Yeah.

Nichole [00:25:42] Yeah. So just this idea that like, like inherent value is another thing that’s been kind of twisted by this whole like neoliberal narrative. And it’s like, yes, humans have inherent worth as like people who, we all deserve a shot at life. Right, we all deserve like basic necessities of life. And I would say even more than that. Like even more than just the bare necessities. But like, we all deserve community and we all deserve a second chance at stuff, in general, like as a concept. But then people like don’t give it to vulnerable people who need it, and then we have this narrative where it’s like, again, white men need to be coddled their entire lives because we’re all terrified of them secretly, but like also obsessed with them. And up to billionaires and Nazis. Like, we still have to find these redemption stories for them, too. And I’m just sick of seeing it in media because media is the biggest – this is why we love analyzing media. People think it’s frivolous, but it’s not because media is what teaches us and really ingrains this kind of shit in us.

Callie [00:26:47] Yeah. What’s important to us as a society. And that’s why it’s so damaging. Like Jeff Bezos made his money off of his employees passing out from heatstroke and wearing diapers because – grown adults wearing diapers in his warehouses because they do not get enough time to have bathroom breaks on their day. And you still are really gonna be up in these Twitter threads or Facebook threads or whatever defending the fact that he was able to buy such a disgustingly expensive piece of property. While others starve. While his own employees starve. They don’t earn a living wage. They have to be on public assistance programs. And you’re really out here defending him?

Nichole [00:27:33] I don’t think there’s a city left, and I may be misquoting but it’s not a big exaggeration. But I don’t think that there is a major city left in the United States where someone can afford, what is it, a one-bedroom or two-bedroom apartment?

Callie [00:27:46] Yeah, on minimum wage.

Nichole [00:27:46] On minimum wage.

Callie [00:27:47] No, not a single state.

Nichole [00:27:49] And this guy gets to go buy a house for what to like an average person would be like $75.

Callie [00:27:57] Yeah.

Nichole [00:27:57] He gets to buy the most expensive house in Los Angeles for the equivalent for someone like us, 75 bucks. Nobody earned that.

Callie [00:28:08] No, you steal it.

Nichole [00:28:08] You literally could cure cancer and save the entire world, and you still haven’t earned having-

Callie [00:28:12] He could fix climate change.

Nichole [00:28:15] He could fix climate change.

Callie [00:28:17] Literally. Like he, the whole problem.

Nichole [00:28:19] He could feed the United States. Like he could, he could solve many problems with a chunk of his money.

Callie [00:28:24] And still be rich.

Nichole [00:28:24] And still be rich. And yeah, that’s not, nobody earns that. Nobody earns that. And especially not building a business that’s wiped out small businesses, that’s increased greatly the amount of online ordering that we do, so we’re talking about plastic and packaging and waste and all this shit. And again, fucking guilty. I have an Amazon Prime membership.

Callie [00:28:47] Yeah.

Nichole [00:28:48] But like you can’t… I don’t think people understand is like you don’t have the options that you used to have. Like it’s actually stuff like people now where like you have to go on Amazon to order it. Because it’s taken over and that’s been on purpose. So nobody, that’s not worth more money than like anybody else. I mean, more money than like nations have. Like it’s fucking insane. And the fact that we’re defending that and holding on. Again, like you said, it really is this idea that like if somehow I made it or I married someone who did something like that, I don’t want anyone coming for what we have. But I say to you, that’s fucking gross and you need to like break that apart. Like you should not want to have that much wealth because it literally means you took it from other people.

Callie [00:29:39] Yeah. Well and I saw a tweet where they were talking about, like they had listed some of the world’s, you know, richest people and they’re like, here’s what their wealth is now and here’s what it would have been if like we were living in a system that had Bernie Sanders’ wealth tax. And these people were still billionaires. But instead of like 150 billion, it would be like five billion. Which like, you’re thinking, oh my god that’s so much less. Five billion dollars is still unfathomable to our like fucking lizard brains. Like we can not-

Nichole [00:30:09] Yeah, it’s too big.

Callie [00:30:10] You know what I mean? Like that’s part of it too, is people really can’t fathom how much money this truly is. So it’s like we’re not saying he’s not going to have anything and would be on – well I am actually, leftists are saying. But like, even though, you know, neoliberals or whatever, it’s like they’re gonna be fine. Like they’re not trying to take literally everything from them. I’m just so tired.

Nichole [00:30:36] Yeah, there’s still going to be grossly, obscenely rich.

Callie [00:30:38] Rich. Yeah, yeah.

Nichole [00:30:40] But they’re at least now paying what they should be paying.

Callie [00:30:42] Just stop kissing all these rich people’s asses.

Nichole [00:30:44] Before we eat them.

Callie [00:30:45] Like every time some celebrity donates some money. Like do you remember, you know it’ll be like-

Nichole [00:30:49] Oh god.

Callie [00:30:49] Ellen DeGeneres. Oh she gave this like poor kid twenty five thousand dollars. I’m like, she probably makes that in an hour. Like who the fuck cares?

Nichole [00:30:59] It’s literally like me taking, it’s probably not even like me taking a quarter out of my pocket and giving it to someone. And no one’s praising me for that.

Callie [00:31:04] Right! No, I just don’t know why we have to praise these people.

Nichole [00:31:09] And they shouldn’t.

Callie [00:31:10] And fine if you want to be going after them, that’s your business. But I just don’t know why we have to be fighting each other because so many of us want to like defend these rich people. It’s just so gross, we’re not going to get anywhere.

Nichole [00:31:24] Mm hmm. Fucking gross.

Callie [00:31:28] It’s so gross. I’m so exhausted by it, honestly. It’s like it’s one thing to have to fight the rich and powerful. But I cannot believe how much we have to fight each other. To like unplug these fucking lemmings from the matrix. It’s like exhausting.

Nichole [00:31:42] I know I went to this store the other day and there was this Black woman standing outside who is collecting signatures for different things. And I think I signed everything and I was like, hopefully this all checks out. But, you know, a lot of this stuff was like progressive and like sounded really good. And she and I were talking and she’s like, yeah, I haven’t picked who I’m supporting yet. Because, you know, I do like a lot of like where Bernie stands for but I’m just worried about too many freebies for people because, you know, I’m a hard worker. I’m from like a mining town in the Midwest or something and like. And I’m like, girl. You’re out here, like collecting signatures. Like, you know what I mean, it’s like, yes you’re a hard worker, but like, why is that inherently… Like you have this fear of what? That everyone’s not going to be out here busting their ass all the time? Like yeah, that is the point. You know?

Nichole [00:32:40] And it’s just so hard. And she and I ended up, we had a really good conversation because I was like, well you know, like let’s break that down a little bit. And I was like, I think, I just said, I think, you know, I support Bernie because his policies don’t leave anyone behind, whereas all the other candidates do. And I found, I said, for instance, I just quit my job so I can work for myself and like, I got very burnt out last year. I was working like 80 hours a week and traveling all the time. And I was like, you know, I think there’s something to be said for being able to take breaks. And I think there’s something really beautiful about being able to choose the work that you’re doing and do it in a way that makes sense for you. But I was like this fear of people being lazy I don’t think is really founded from what I’ve read, like people tend to actually step up.

Nichole [00:33:29] I said, like, for me, I may not be doing paid work right now, but I have like really thrown myself into activism and like my side business, and I’m like trying to build some stuff that’s gonna have some long term things. So I’m like, you know, but someone could see me like, I don’t have to work right now and worry that I’d be lazy, but I’m not, like I’m finding my way. And I said, and also I just don’t, I think that the potential for people to be able to go to school, for people to be able to pick what job they have because they have health care no matter what, things like that, like it’s actually going to increase productivity. Even though I hate talking about productivity but I was like, you know, I just, and she was like, yeah, that makes sense.

Nichole [00:34:12] And, you know, we talked and she was like, what do you think? There’s some proposal that you can’t be a contractor anymore. Have you heard of this? Like with Uber, like you’d have to be an Uber employee. That like contract work would go away, at least for corporations, I guess. And she was like, what do you think of that? And I was like, honestly, I don’t like that at all. And I was like, this is kind of my, what I’m trying to get to with you, is like, if we had health care and we had, you know, we had certain things like free education, things taken care of, then I think contract work is a really empowering option for people to have.

Nichole [00:34:51] But I said right now, contract workers at big companies are being exploited because they’re being treated like employees but not getting the benefits of an employee. So if we had externalized those benefits, then you could choose. You to have more power as a worker to choose. Like, if I want to do contract work because I want to have control over my schedule and my projects but like this company is not treating me right, I can just leave because I still have benefits and like go find something that’s better. Not that finding work is always that easy but obviously the benefits and things like that are a big barrier.

Nichole [00:35:25] So it’s like, you know, so I don’t think, I said to me, it’s like them putting the onus on the wrong thing, right? It’s the corporations exploiting contract workers. It’s not contract work in and of itself. Contract work in and of itself is actually pretty powerful. Like for me, I’m able to go and get paid what I should have been paid and work on my own schedule and manage my health better. But it’s hard because I don’t have benefits now. And I just don’t have them because they’re too expensive and I don’t get enough for what I’d have to pay in so I’m like taking that gamble.

Callie [00:36:00] Yeah. And a lot of times you have to like, put then all of these like external rules on employee-like it would be, like one of the, I know there is a lot of negative stuff to be said about like the gig economy, right, and how exploitative it’s become. But it was really empowering, the idea of like, oh you want to be able to like do something on a flexible schedule in your free time then great. But we turn you into an employee and now all of a sudden, well you’ve got to be like clocking in and clocking out, and we’ve got to like record your meal breaks and all that stuff. Which like are important checks on the system but they would like then create undue burden, I feel, on like people that are trying to have like a flexible, you know, way of living.

Nichole [00:36:44] Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I don’t think like taking contract work away as an option actually empowers workers unless, I mean, I think period. I don’t think taking an option away from someone is good. I think regulating like what is contract work versus what is an employee. Because there are those regulations but I can tell you they’re not being employed. Because all the contract workers I know at my job are essentially employees and they’re just not getting benefits and they’re being kept as contract workers for years. That’s not OK. But as a general concept, for me to be able to say I’ve acquired, I’ve amassed enough knowledge and experience that out on the open market, I’m worth 2, 3, 4 times what you’re paying me here and I’m gonna go get that. And I could work less hours, and work on projects that interest me? I want that fucking option. I don’t want to be tied to one company. You know, I want to be able to do that.

Nichole [00:37:41] So, yeah. So it’s just one of those things like fucking everything else under capitalism that’s been kind of perverted by the system of like, it is a good option, but it’s also an option that’s being badly exploited and is not OK. And so you need to regulate and you need to look at again like, why shouldn’t someone have health care whether they have a job or not? If you fix that, you fix a lot of these problems. Because a lot of contract workers I know are fine and happy being contract workers, but then they have families and they’re like, well, I got, you know, now I have to go be an employee somewhere because I need benefits for my family. And then they get into a job that they maybe don’t love, but that like provides what they need to take care of their people.

Callie [00:38:26] Well and I saw someone having a discussion online that I thought was so powerful the other day. And they were talking about how Medicare for all is actually a feminist issue because like how many-

Nichole [00:38:35] Yes, and a queer one.

Callie [00:38:36] Yeah, because we talk about how many people are trapped in jobs they don’t like because they don’t want to give up their benefits. But how many people are probably trapped in like a marriage or a relationship that maybe isn’t working out for them or they would choose some sort of like nontraditional form of like cohabitating, but they need that marriage certificate so that they can get benefits? Like how empowering would it be if, like, that wasn’t something that you could, like, lose or gain based on like being trapped into an association, whether it’s an employment one or a marriage one? And I was like, god, that is such a good point!

Nichole [00:39:13] Yeah, I listen to the Feel the Bern podcast and they were talking, they interviewed some doctor who I think is also gay. And he was kind of speaking about these things from like an LGBTQ perspective and saying that, I guess in rural areas like HIV has become like a really big problem again. And he’s like a lot of this is that like now HIV/AIDS is very manageable, but you have to catch it early, right, and get someone on a protocol. And he’s like these people literally don’t go to the doctor for 10, 15 years. And then by the time they go, it’s because they’re terrified because like their body’s shutting down and it’s too late. And he’s like, we literally have people dying of like treatable things. And like specifically, you know, the gay community is being like overwhelmingly, I think he said it was like Black men specifically were like disproportionately infected by this because they don’t have access to healthcare. And he’s like, so this is a queer issue as much as anything else.

Nichole [00:40:15] And then he was talking about like from a trans perspective. And similarly too, you know, if you’re queer or trans and you are afraid to come out, right, and like maybe you’re on your parents’ health insurance. And that’s your only option. Or you’re in a relationship of some kind or you’re at a job that’s very discriminatory but you’re relying on this health care. Like you don’t have options to really advocate for yourself. And I thought the trans perspective was really interesting because he was saying like say you want to transition, but you’re on your parents’ health care. That means that maybe you’re afraid to tell them, so you’re like terrified that they’re going to find out or you delay your starting transitioning your medical transition because you don’t want them to find out. Or they’d know but now you have to keep them happy.

Nichole [00:41:03] He’s like, say you’re 18 and you’re on their insurance till you’re 26. Like, that’s eight years that you have to keep your parents happy because you’re terrified they’re going to take away this thing that you need. So he’s like there’s just in so many ways, like it’s very liberating for marginalized, like you’re saying, vulnerable, marginalized people to just be able to take care of themselves and not have to cede their power and autonomy to someone else just to get the treatment that they need. Or fucking die because they don’t have access to it.

Callie [00:41:34] Well and we have prep now, like.

Nichole [00:41:37] Exactly. So if you can go…

Callie [00:41:37] You know, like it’s wild that like there’s even a raise in like, you know, people getting HIV because like that is, like not 100% preventable, but like pretty damn near close. Like, why are people, you know what I mean? And it’s like but that’s not available to everyone. And like that is so fucking disgusting, you know?

Nichole [00:41:59] Yeah, so it’s not just the treatment.

Callie [00:42:00] We have medication, but then people can’t even take it.

Nichole [00:42:03] Exactly.

Callie [00:42:04] It’s like that is so fucked up.

Nichole [00:42:06] So that’s what he’s saying, he’s like if you’re able to go to the doctor for regular checkups, if you’re able to have access to health care, it’s not just the treatment of the thing, but it’s the prevention of the thing. It’s the education about the thing. It’s the feeling safe and being able to talk to someone about the thing. Like it’s all of it around it. And yeah, it’s absolutely unacceptable that we have people in this country dying from a very largely preventable, and also largely like treatable, manageable disease. That is absolutely unforgivable.

Callie [00:42:41] Yeah. Yep.

Nichole [00:42:44] And yet people want to be out here with like, “Medicare For All Who Want It.” And it’s like, okay, girl. All right.

Callie [00:42:51] I just… My blood pressure spikes.

Nichole [00:42:56] I know. Me too.

Callie [00:42:57] Every time I hear that phrase, because my mind instantly, like, conjures an image of Mayo Cheat’s like smarmy fucking face as he says it.

Nichole [00:43:05] Being like, “I came up with that. Isn’t it clever? I took what someone else was saying and then made it worse.” Congrats.

Callie [00:43:13] Well, and I’m so, like obviously lying. Like I’m being, he’s so disingenuous to the point of like he’s gonna really smile into the camera knowing that like under that plan, the people that are dying will still be dying.

Nichole [00:43:28] Yeah.

Callie [00:43:28] It’s like how evil? Honestly, like how fucking evil do you have to be? And I know you know better because 3 years ago you’re on camera saying how like Medicare For All is a starting point and how you were like a Bernie Stan. And so it’s like this is you just clearly being bought and sold and now not giving a fuck about all the people that you, oh my god I can’t. I can’t go down this road. I’ma reel myself back.

Nichole [00:43:58] Yeah. And I don’t mean to, like attack someone’s like, appearance. So that’s not what I’m doing here. But like, he honestly looks more ghoulish every day. And I really believe that, like it is eating his soul.

Callie [00:44:13] Yeah. Well, yeah.

Nichole [00:44:15] Do you know, like he looks like, like in Star Wars where like you start turning to the dark side and you, and it’s like very ableist how they represent like evil. But just you know, he seems like his, something is being drained from him. He just looks very ghoulish to me.

Callie [00:44:30] His soul.

Nichole [00:44:31] Yes. Ugh, anyway.

Callie [00:44:33] Yeah. No I will talk all day long about his fucking appearance in the way that like, not pick on individual things, but the fact that, like, if you’re someone who can smile while you’re condemning people to death, you can go fuck yourself for all of eternity. Like I do not, I don’t have to be nice to you. I am not a liberal, so I’m not going to play these games of thinking that I still have to, like, show you respect and oh, you’re a good person deep down. No, you can go fuck yourself.

Nichole [00:45:00] Yeah. And I’m going to say it once, maybe a hundred times, we’ll see how often it comes up. But I will not tolerate anyone sitting here and being like, but he’s gay though, can you imagine what it took to get there as a gay man? I can imagine because we’ve seen it happen. And what it is, is selling other, more marginalized people away in exchange for power.

Callie [00:45:25] Yep. Gross.

Nichole [00:45:25] And that, first of all is extreme tokenization. It’s fucking gross. So all of you neolibs out there who think you’re being like so like supportive and like woke and great for supporting like a woman or a gay person or a Black person when their policies are fucking garbage.

Callie [00:45:43] Death. Not just garbage, literal death sentences for more marginalized people. Yeah.

Nichole [00:45:49] Yeah. Garbage is way too light of a term. That’s too cute. Now we’re talking about people who are actually going to like facilitate the death and like horrifying circumstances-

Callie [00:45:58] Suffering, yeah.

Nichole [00:45:59] For other people, suffering. It’s fucking gross and I’m very tired of it. All of the women for Clinton can honestly fuck off. That is so gross. That is like peak white feminism. Buttigieg shit is like peak white gay culture. Where again, we’re going to go to brunch and just be like, hey girls, sorry, you’re like dying but like, mimosas though.

Callie [00:46:24] Right. Yeah. We just want to celebrate pride, even though that was literally started by Black trans women defending themselves against cops. But like fuck them though, we’re just going to vote for like the cute gay boy who’s going to lie to us about our health care coverage.

Nichole [00:46:40] It’s so disgusting.

Callie [00:46:41] While allowing the world to still burn around us due to climate change.

Nichole [00:46:45] And what is he doing? That’s the thing, too, is people vote for these people who don’t even have platforms around their identity. Like he doesn’t have like a gay platform. He’s not out here on like super hardcore on like gay issues that he’s going to champion. Just like Hillary with women stuff. It’s like you have these…

Callie [00:47:05] Yeah but Nichole, she was a grandma. It’s hashtag relatable.

Nichole [00:47:14] Like, I don’t even know how to process my feelings about Warren because like, I was pretty cool with her. I was always like way more Bernie. But like now she’s so centrist that I feel like it’s the same shit. Like you’re literally selling people’s lives away to get like this power. And that does not make you the X candidate. You’re not the female candidate. You’re just another white person who’s selling people down the road to get votes. Same with Buttigieg. And Biden, my god, he’s like Granddaddy Ghoul, and then Bloomberg, I can’t even go there because I’m going to lose it. I had a whole Twitter fight about it last night and I just like, I’m all wrapped up still.

Callie [00:47:57] Right.

Nichole [00:47:57] But anyway, yeah, we need to get away, like we covered this on VWPA, but this whole identity politics and how perverted it’s become. And this idea that you just like vote with the person who has your identity despite their harmful and awful policies that actually don’t even help you. Like Buttigieg isn’t gonna do shit for me. As a queer person or as a woman. Or, well, person with a uterus, I should say. I constantly misgender myself. It’s like a, someone can play a drinking game.

Callie [00:48:29] Well then you’re cancelled I guess?

Nichole [00:48:32] I guess. Self-cancelling.

Callie [00:48:34] For self-misgendering.

Nichole [00:48:35] I’m a self-sustaining SJW ecosystem. I just self-cancel all the time.

Callie [00:48:43] Oh my god.

Nichole [00:48:44] Yeah. But yeah, I just, if one more fucking person gets in my face or I see one more Women for Warren, Women for Clinton. It’s like you fuckin white feminist douchebags, get the fuck out of here.

Callie [00:48:56] Well, and representation matters, but it doesn’t matter more than policy. You know what I mean? And that’s the thing. It’s like, yes, I will be excited when we get our first queer president. Well… Yeah, I was just gonna say, I hope we… No countries, no borders, none of that bullshit so like take that all with a grain of salt. But like, yes I will be happy when we get our first woman president. Yes, I’ll be happy when we get our first queer president and whatever. But like it’s not more important than like what someone’s actually going to do for the most marginalized among us, right?

Nichole [00:49:31] Yeah. Cause for the Libs what that identity does is allow them to get away with a whole lot of bullshit.

Callie [00:49:37] Well yeah because they just check out and they literally go back to brunch and they stop paying any attention to what that person’s doing. It’s why Obama was able to get away with drinking a glass of water in front of the citizens of Flint and joking about the water being fine. It’s why he was able to literally not do anything about Standing Rock, even though he was still president when that was going down and could have like sent them help. He allowed all of those people to be tortured and harmed by the police when he could have done something. It’s why we got a right wing health care plan instead of single payer. That was not because of the Republican Congress. We didn’t have a Republican Congress when he started that. It’s just, people take their eye off the ball because of some like weird tokenized identity and then that person gets away with literal murder. And I’m so sick of it.

Nichole [00:50:32] Bill Clinton was white trash and played a saxophone and then we got mass incarceration. Lovely.

Callie [00:50:39] And people still refer to him as our first Black President.

Nichole [00:50:42] Oh, no!

Callie [00:50:43] Which is like, I can’t even believe I just said that. I feel dirty even saying that. But like that’s how far this like neoliberal bullshit goes, you know?

Nichole [00:50:56] Exactly. Exactly. And Biden almost got, I mean, for a long time it looked like, thank god people are getting savvy to it, but like he had the Black vote. And was even, because of the Obama effect. Right? Like it even like passed over to someone who isn’t of that demographic.

Callie [00:51:14] No, but Nichole, he got the Black people to vote for Obama.

Nichole [00:51:19] Every time he says “the blacks”. I’m like… bro.

Callie [00:51:24] I know! I know. It’s so inappropriate.

Nichole [00:51:28] Bro. He’s like, “The Blacks are gonna turn up for me.” And I’m like, oh my god. Oh my god.

Callie [00:51:36] It’s deeply uncomfortable every time he says it. Yeah.

Nichole [00:51:40] It’s like, do you know what decade it is?

Callie [00:51:41] No, I just honestly can’t believe no one has called him out on the fact that he keeps claiming that he was brought in by Obama’s campaign to bring in the Black vote and nobody has been like, what the fuck did this guy just say?! Like Sir, Sir, you did not bring the Black vote. Obama had that on lock.

Nichole [00:52:07] Yeah. He was good. He was good at that.

Callie [00:52:08] You brought in the racist whites to convince them that even though we had a black guy president, that like, don’t worry. Things weren’t gonna be too-

Nichole [00:52:17] Yeah, the White House is still going to stay nice and white.

Callie [00:52:19] Yeah, and moderate. Like that was why you were brought in.

Nichole [00:52:24] Yeah. He’s like, don’t worry, it’ll be winter in here all year long.

Callie [00:52:27] It is so disturbing to me. I just can’t stop like…

Nichole [00:52:32] And I couldn’t when like Booker and Harris were still in the race.

Callie [00:52:37] He said it so many times!

Nichole [00:52:37] Like once or twice they were kind of like, excuse me?

Callie [00:52:39] Yeah.

Nichole [00:52:40] But they didn’t like go after him on that. And I’m like, why is everyone just letting him say this stuff?

Callie [00:52:45] I know.

Nichole [00:52:47] But I mean, maybe they just knew that he was gonna end up tripping himself up cause now he’s got like nobody.

Callie [00:52:52] No, I don’t think they did.

Nichole [00:52:54] But no. They just let him get away with that and I’m like, y’all?!

Callie [00:52:57] He’s so racist. He is such a piece of shit. Like, I just can’t even believe we’re still talking about him, as a country I mean. Not us, but you know.

Nichole [00:53:07] I know. We probably, I mean both.

Callie [00:53:08] But yeah to be fair.

Nichole [00:53:12] Yeah. Yeah, I just really hope that he’s actually done and that he doesn’t somehow make a comeback in South Carolina. But we’ll see what happens, as like my stomach lining just gets eaten away by all this shit. I just have a stomach ache all the time now.

Callie [00:53:25] Same.

Nichole [00:53:25] I’m so nervous constantly. Everything is so precarious.

Callie [00:53:29] I know, girl.

Nichole [00:53:31] So Callie.

Callie [00:53:32] Yes?

Nichole [00:53:37] To lighten the mood. Did you hear about the new dry erase board?

Callie [00:53:46] No.

Nichole [00:53:47] It’s remarkable.

Callie [00:53:55] That’s not bad.

Nichole [00:53:56] OK.

Callie [00:54:01] That’s not bad.

Nichole [00:54:01] I have to say, too, I don’t think that we commented on it the last episode. First of all, all of our listeners are fucking amazing. I don’t think we took a pause to like, unless I’m just forgetting which happens a lot. Neurological issues from chronic illness are a real thing. Also just life. I feel like capitalism just makes us like forgetful.

Callie [00:54:26] I am definitely dumber than I used to be.

Nichole [00:54:26] And I definitely like, read articles about that.

Callie [00:54:29] And my brain is just tired all the time.

Nichole [00:54:31] All the screens we see all day, information thrown at us. But anyway, so whether I did or not, let’s do it now. Yeah. Y’all were just so fucking supportive. Like our social media has never been so active, so amazing.

Callie [00:54:49] Yeah, poppin.

Nichole [00:54:49] Poppin. It was poppin, OK? Just all the love and support we got for starting the show. The like logo that we came up with and the theme song, the first episode and all of that. So just like a general fucking heartfelt incredible thank you.

Callie [00:55:07] Yeah.

Nichole [00:55:08] Callie and I were talking about it like over messenger or something, but we were just saying, remarking on like how different this launch has been since the first launch of, you know, our first podcast Vegan Warrior Princesses Attack if you want to check it out. And I’m really glad that I had both experiences. So when we launched VWPA, we were literally unknowns. We were not part of the vegan movement. We were definitely not part of the leftist movement. We didn’t know anybody. We had no connections. We literally just like came up with this thing that we loved and like launched it into the void and were like, let’s see what happens. And like slowly we grew over the five years and just really loved it the whole time and just knew it was something we like had to do. It’s almost like a weird compulsion. Like sometimes we sort of hate it, but we like can not imagine not doing it.

Callie [00:56:04] That’s very accurate.

Nichole [00:56:06] Kind of like being a parent I think. Like even when we say we hate it, we don’t really hate it, but it’s just that like sometimes the burden of it, the weight of it is like too heavy. But like we just cannot fathom not having this in our life. We just fucking love it. But then this time launching like having a platform and having people who are like invested in what we’re doing was just such a beautiful experience. So I just want to say thank you to everyone. And specifically, I saw one person comment in the VWPA Society on Facebook if you want to join it, is a vegan oriented group, but still very like leftists. So if that sounds fun to you, that’s a thing that you can join. But one person was like, someone had posted about the first episode and was like, oh my god, right from the start like, I’m loving this logo and the intro is great. And then someone posted, like just like, I felt like I read it in such a small, hesitant voice, was like, is there still a joke?

Callie [00:57:06] Yes. Yes. I saw multiple comments asking if there were still going to be a joke. I can’t even believe any of you had to ask.

Nichole [00:57:14] I mean, first of all, of course.

Callie [00:57:16] Of course.

Nichole [00:57:17] I make a solemn promise to you that as long as Callie and I are ever doing creative projects together, there will always be a joke. But yeah, I just like, made me so, just happy.

Callie [00:57:27] We didn’t even discuss it.

Nichole [00:57:28] It wasn’t even like what content are we doing now, or what’s the vibe or the tone? It was just like, I just need to know if there’s still a joke.

Callie [00:57:35] It was very funny.

Nichole [00:57:36] Yeah, it was great.

Callie [00:57:37] Yeah, yeah.

Nichole [00:57:38] So yes, I want to say thanks for all of that.

Callie [00:57:39] Yeah, thank you for all the love and support. And just rallying with us like when it launched, there was just, it felt like there was so much excitement and love and we were literally working like around the clock for days and not sleeping and just really stressed. But it was really awesome feeling like we launched this all with you, you know? Like we all did this together and we were really proud to, like, have the new show come out. I can’t believe we did it like one week to the next. Like that was a fast-

Nichole [00:58:10] Yeah. We should not have done that.

Callie [00:58:12] No. No we should not have.

Nichole [00:58:15] But also on brand.

Callie [00:58:16] But there was no chance we were not gonna do it that way. We just, yeah.

Nichole [00:58:18] I was just too excited. I couldn’t wait. Yeah. And it was just so cool this time-

Callie [00:58:23] And we’ve still never skipped a week.

Nichole [00:58:26] Five years strong.

Callie [00:58:27] Which is such a ridiculous standard that we’ve held ourselves to.

Nichole [00:58:32] And we’ve never repeated content. We have not as of yet, like we haven’t ever replayed an episode and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. But like, it’s really like we have produced original content every week for five fucking years y’all. Whoo!

Callie [00:58:45] Every weekend for five years.

Nichole [00:58:45] Yeah. It is not a model I would recommend to other people.

Callie [00:58:50] No. No. Do as we say, not what we do.

Nichole [00:58:53] Especially when you make like two hour plus episodes every week.

Callie [00:58:58] I know.

Nichole [00:58:58] Which is also doing the most. But you know, that’s just what is in our souls.

Callie [00:59:03] It is.

Nichole [00:59:04] Our spirit speaks to us. And we’re working on a new little project that I want to announce now, so when you see it come out you understand the purpose of it. So we’re coming up with a series called, I almost thought about making this its own podcast but after seeing how fucking hard it was to set up the new website and do podcast stuff, I was like, fuck that. But we’re gonna do a new series called Big Tent Energy which I came up with, I’m very proud of it. But what the purpose of this is going to be is we’re gonna do very short- stop laughing, they are. They’re going to be more scripted.

Callie [00:59:45] I just heard everyone laughing. Like I just heard hundreds of people.

Nichole [00:59:47] I know. I know. Listen, I don’t blame you for being skeptical. But no, literally the entire purpose of them is to make smaller, really easily digestible episodes that can be shared with other people. And the point of them is to try to like embrace the ideology of like big tent politics, right, where like we’re all here, if we can find a common ground, like, let’s try to build community and talk to each other in a way that isn’t combative. And like see if we can move the majority towards the best solution. Or the better solution, no best because it’s Bernie. And like help break down misinformation or topics that are kind of like floating around. And if you’re someone who’s busy and you’re not really paying attention, and especially for not watching leftist media, you can just kind of like either not know what’s going on or have a very like tainted view of like what reality is.

Nichole [01:00:48] So, for instance, you know, all the headlines have been saying that Bernie Sanders is not a viable candidate and yet all the polls, like even if you actually click on the article that will say that, the data that they provide even within that article is not, doesn’t sustain like what the headline is saying.

Callie [01:01:05] Literally contradicts, yeah.

Nichole [01:01:07] Yeah. And it’s not all going to, actually a lot of stuff isn’t going to necessarily be about Bernie, but it’s gonna be about just concepts and topics in general. So like one I want to do is about the youth vote. Like people keep saying that young people don’t vote, but they’ve actually been turning out in record numbers for the last three elections. So giving some stats and some information about that, making it very short. But like something to be like, hey, when you hear that the youth are supporting a certain candidate, like don’t count them out. And there is a topic idea brought up in the group that was really intriguing to me that I want to kind of link in with this, which is are young people underrepresented and are they actually like a marginalized group? And I think that the answer is like, yes, in the very least, they’re underrepresented. And I found out that, for instance, there was some regulations passed to disenfranchise student voters in New Hampshire by Republicans. So they made it so that you had to have a car registered in the state in order to vote as a student.

Callie [01:02:07] Oh shit.

Nichole [01:02:07] Yeah. I think maybe as an out-of-state student or whatever the rules were. But, you know, Bernie has like a very strong youth following and like, they know that young people are gonna, if they’re gonna mobilize and vote, it’s going to be for a progressive candidate. So they are trying to block them from being able to vote. So we’re gonna do topics like that. We’re gonna try to keep it, you know, some of them might hit like 15, 20 minutes if we’re doing like a bigger topic, like a politician profile. We talked on VWPA about doing profiles on like Buttigieg, Warren, Bernie to give people more information so that like if you have someone who really doesn’t know, you could send them this episode and we will as neutrally as possible really talk about like the facts of this person’s policies and their viability as a candidate.

Nichole [01:02:52] So yeah, I’m just really excited about that. And it’s our attempt at doing our part at like helping to spread information and getting people kind of on board. Especially specifically people who just don’t have time. And I know our episodes are hard to share sometimes because you’re asking someone to listen through two to three hours of content. So this will be like a nice little snapshot. We actually found a software where we can translate an episode into a little video, so we’ll be able for the shorter ones to put the whole thing on say, Twitter or Instagram, so you can literally just tag people in it and they can just watch it and listen to it. And we’ll be able to pull snippets out for longer episodes, but have the snippet be that even within itself, it gives you enough information so that you know way more than you did like 30 seconds ago or three minutes ago.

Callie [01:03:40] Yeah, we’re so excited. And, you know, we obviously consider the show like part of our activism, but it just feels like everything is so important right now to get involved. And we’re looking at other ways to try to, you know, make sure that we get the best candidate possible and that this really, not to be too dire, but that’s also kind of our brand so, but this really feels like this is our last chance to, like, make a difference before things get, like, really fucking bad. And so this show, this little spinoff series feels like an important way for us to, like, contribute. Where we can kind of package the work that we already really do and love, but in a way that’s like a lot more easily digestible and shareable.

Nichole [01:04:24] And less, I don’t want to lose our like personalities or fire, but I do think that these will be more scripted and kept as neutral as we can be just in an effort to help actually reach people who may disagree with the content, but would be open to listening as long as they’re not feeling attacked. So for instance, if we do one about Buttigieg, I don’t want to come out and be like, this fucking rat, you know, fuck this guy.

Callie [01:04:50] Aww.

Nichole [01:04:51] Well this is this show is for. We can do that here. But you know, say you have people in your life who like maybe don’t have a super strong political opinion, but they think voting for the gay guy is like progressive and they’re not really staying up on the issues. And like Buttigieg spins his fucking Obama type yarns, right. Like he’s up there saying stuff that doesn’t mean anything in this like authoritative orator type way. So like if you’re not paying attention, you think, oh, he seems like a nice guy and whatever. So this would be something you could send to a person like that where we’re not making fun of them for considering Buttigieg, but we’re just saying like hey, here’s stuff you need to consider if you’re gonna vote for him and here’s why. A lot of his stuff when you break it down actually isn’t gonna work, even though it may sound like it’s more reasonable. Or more centrist.

Nichole [01:05:39] So, and we’ll kind of see. I mean I think like definitely Sanders and Buttigieg are ones that like seem to be pretty viable right now and then we’ll kind of see as things go along who else we might need to spotlight. But if you see these come through, they’re not gonna be on any particular schedule. We’re literally going to do them as like stuff comes up and we see fit. And so if you see them pop up, that’s what they are. Give them a listen and then just know that they’re being done in the spirit of being shared. We’re hoping that they have a wider reach than our regular podcast does so that we can help get information out to people.

Nichole [01:06:12] I talked to my good friend the other night and she was saying that. She’s like, you know, I’m just really busy and she’s like, just got engaged and, you know, she’s kind of like in her love bubble, and she’s been working really hard and like they’ve been working on the house. And she’s like, I’ll be honest, I just kind of don’t know what’s going on right now and it feels overwhelming to try to get informed. And she supported Bernie last time and so she kind of has a general idea of supporting him this time. But I was like, hey, you know, is this something that you would appreciate? And she’s like, yes, oh my god. She’s like just to sort through the information and trying to figure out what’s real is like, really difficult.

Callie [01:06:47] Yeah. I mean, I just had a conversation with someone who was like, yeah, you know, I’ve, I kind of watched the debates, but not really. And, you know, I kind of like that Buttigieg guy. And I was like, well, you need to know about this whole like thing that he did in South Bend and firing the police chief and just some very credible criticisms that he has been acting in a very like racist, white supremacist way. And they were just like, oh my god, I had no idea.

Nichole [01:07:16] Right, and you wouldn’t.

Callie [01:07:17] And I was like, yeah. Like the media is really not, you know, talking about things that it should be. And so this is a way that we want to try to just like get information out there.

Nichole [01:07:28] Yeah, yeah. Like Callie had a great idea about, what did you call it? Like the universal…

Callie [01:07:35] That universal programs work, yeah.

Nichole [01:07:37] Yeah. And why they need to be universal in order to work, to help. Because I think people get very confused and they get- and I will say, you know, as much as I love Bernie, he doesn’t do as good of a job about explaining how things would work as I wish he would, especially in debates. I think he’s better in like longer interviews, but. So we can do some of that work. We can explain his policies and like how they would work as best we understand it. But then also just talk about more general things like universal programs and why, like, you know, we always say like Medicare For All Who Want It is fucking ridiculous and harmful. But it sounds reasonable, right? Like it sounds to someone who doesn’t understand how things work, it sounds like a good compromise. And so we want to talk about like in a small snippet that’s easy to understand, like why that actually doesn’t work and who it’s going to leave behind. So you may still go vote for that, but at least be informed about what you’re actually voting for and who might be harmed by that. That policy. So yeah, we’re excited.

Callie [01:08:39] So we’re excited! Yes.

Nichole [01:08:42] All right, well, we have an advice question today, and, ha ha, our answer is gonna be really short. Heh, we’ll see. So this is one we actually got a few months ago, it came in in November by someone who was listening to VWPA and going through our backlogs. And we had talked about organizing a vegan group back then and that we would be open to giving some tips and suggestions on doing such a thing. So I thought what we could do today is just talk about, so thank you, that was from Denise. Thank you, Denise. I thought we could talk just very briefly, high level. And I think it kind of blends into our main topic because our main topic is going to touch on things surrounding how people don’t necessarily connect in person as much anymore, and how that’s causing some issues. Potentially with how people are relying on online interaction to have any kind of socialization. So this could be a way to organize either a social group around, perhaps a political perspective or organize, we don’t have as many tips necessarily, but just some general guidance for maybe organizing a group that’s a little bit more activism based.

Callie [01:09:58] Mm hmm.

Nichole [01:09:59] So I think for me the biggest thing, and again, this is probably more around a social group, is to find something that you’re really, truly passionate about and something that you think like meeting other people who are into that thing would be helpful. So like for me, for instance, you know, I’m vegan, I’m queer, I am leftist, anarchist, all that good stuff. I really like board games. So like right now, if I were to actually start some kind of social group to meet other people, which I actually might at some point because I want to meet cool people and I want to filter them through my interests. Because I’m a narcissist. Just kidding. You know, I would probably either start a board game group for, like a queer leftist board game group. Or I would start maybe like a book club where we read either, and I probably would even start two book clubs. One for fiction around, you know, just finding interesting fiction to read, and then one that maybe is nonfiction and more political.

Nichole [01:11:05] And so where this could bleed into activism also is like I have found, I have done very little organizing so I’m not going to pretend to be an expert on like organizing around direct action and things like that, but one thing that I was very successful at in terms of activism is book clubs are very powerful. Reading is very powerful and then group discussion is very powerful. So this is where we have to get into what your definition of activism is. But I would say that starting a book club or some kind of educational club around, whatever it is that you think people need to know more about. Like anarchy is very misunderstood. Leftism is very misunderstood. There’s a lot of things that you could mine there.

Nichole [01:11:50] I had good luck with ethical veganism. You know, I started a book club with our cooking group, our vegan cooking group and it really helped people in the group who had just been like health vegans or whatever to understand the ethics behind veganism in a way that wasn’t confrontational. I wasn’t trying to convince anyone of anything. We were just reading these books and then talking about it and actually it was really effective. And it’s good community building. Cause you like talk to each other, you have to learn to navigate differences of opinions and usually you get to eat good food, which is always great. So I would just say, like, whatever you’re gonna organize around, make sure that you’re passionate about it cause that will bleed through and just make the group more fun.

Callie [01:12:36] Yeah. And the just general tip that I have, I think you just did a really good job of talking about like in person type of things. The thing that I would just say about organizing anything online is that like moderation is the fucking key. It really is.

Nichole [01:12:54] Yeah, even in person in a sense, I would agree with that.

Callie [01:12:59] Yeah. Yeah, and it’s, you know, it’s a weird position to be in because, you know, Nichole and I obviously are anarchists and we believe strongly in not having like hierarchies and you know, and also practicing restorative justice. And so it is weird to like have a group that we created that we felt had to be like very kind of strict about maintaining it and moderating it. But it’s the only group I’ve ever been in that’s lasted this long and also hasn’t like devolved into just a complete shit show. And what kind of convinced me-

Nichole [01:13:36] And we have thousands of people in there now.

Callie [01:13:38] Yeah.

Nichole [01:13:38] And it’s like, a little safe haven.

Callie [01:13:40] It is. And I think what convinced me that it wasn’t actually wrong to moderate the way we did was to, like have buy-in from other people. Right, I think buy-in with members as much as possible is key.

Nichole [01:13:53] That’s a really good point.

Callie [01:13:53] But also it’s, thank you, but also it’s that you make it safe for people that are generally not safe.

Nichole [01:14:03] Yes!

Callie [01:14:03] So it’s like, it may feel like a weird thing to be kind of putting yourself in this role of being judge and jury over like when a post gets flagged for being inappropriate, or when someone says they’re being like triggered or harmed or whatever. But if you operate out of a place of trying to make sure it’s like as safe as possible, while not squashing any and all conflict because conflict is gonna happen and you have to kind of allow it. But walking that line of making sure people aren’t being like unnecessarily harmed. I don’t, I’ve realized that that is not actually in opposition to my political beliefs. You know?

Nichole [01:14:41] Yeah. Yeah, that’s a super, super good point, because I do think like especially if you’re a leftist, anarchist, etc. like you do, you know-

Callie [01:14:51] Grapple with, yeah.

Nichole [01:14:51] Believe in like, not having a hierarchy but these groups take a strong hand.

Callie [01:14:56] Yeah.

Nichole [01:14:57] And I think to add onto what you said, you’ve just inspired some ideas in me. I think a big part of what will make it successful is to have a common goal. So like you were saying have buy-in, but even to organize, I think to have a clear and then common goal. So like you have to set the precedent for like what are we doing here? And then the people who join are people who, because you’ve clearly communicated what that goal is, are going to be people who share that goal with you. And then on top of that, like as you evolve, what you have to do is find collaborators and you have to decentralize the power of the group.

Nichole [01:15:37] So it’s a fine balance to walk where you’re having to do heavy moderation, making sure you’re keeping people safe, and that you’re adhering to the goal of the group. Or the promised atmosphere of the group maybe is a better thing to say. But then you also have to like remove the ego of it and let the group evolve as it’s going to naturally. And give up some of that power to find, because you can’t do it by yourself forever. Especially if successful. Like you’re gonna get sick one week or you’re going to like whatever. You’re going to need other people to rely on.

Nichole [01:16:11] And one of the things that happened to me, and I was helping to organize this cooking club that we had put together and it was very, very successful. And I got in, I think, at the first event. So I went to the first event that this girl set up and she and I became really good friends. And like she asked me, like right from the first event to do this with her. And I was like, cool. But the problem was because it was her idea, she had the set vision for what the group was. And as I wanted to expand it, make it a bit more political, a little bit more radical, she just could not, did not want any part of it and got very upset and offended that I was basically like taking her baby, right. Like she needed it to stay this thing.

Nichole [01:16:50] So I’m just gonna say, like, it is hard when something is your baby. It’s very hard but I think kind of to Callie’s point, like there’s this social responsibility you have to create this safe environment with this common goal. But part of being against hierarchy is to allow the community to create the space. So we walk this line with the VWPA Society, where we moderate very heavily around the rules that we have in place for the group. And these rules are specifically, they’ve been crafted over the last five years and constantly modified to prevent things that we see as making the space unsafe. But then we really let the group run itself.

Nichole [01:17:32] You know, and like people talk about what they want to talk about in there, again within the rules. But the common goal of the group isn’t actually to be like a vegan safe space like you might expect. The common goal of the group, as stated, is to create a space where people can feel safe having conversations that in other spaces would get them canceled. Or might be controversial that you’re scared to have. In order to facilitate learning from each other and community building. That’s the actual goal of the group. And people think it’s also to be like fans of the show and it’s like that’s not actually the purpose. That’s why Callie and I keep ourselves out of it. Sometimes I go in and like a bunch of posts and then I’m like, oh I probably shouldn’t do that because I’m like, putting my hand in things, you know? But like, we want that group to be people who listen to the show to have the kind of community that they wish they had in real life. Where they can be safe and understand that they can make a mistake and just learn from it and not be canceled, not be screamed at. People, you know, can go in there and like have a real community.

Nichole [01:18:36] And that community, yes, has a few demographics in place. Like most people in there are vegan or they’re at least vegan friendly, like they’re cool with people being vegan. Right, there’s the, it’s based on like leftist principles. Right, so we have some commonality. But there’s a lot of people who go in there who are not vegan, who are not leftist, but because we have these rules in place and we set the tone with the show, like they’re fine and there’s-

Callie [01:18:58] Or they quickly leave.

Nichole [01:18:59] Or they quickly leave. But, you know, there’s really good common ground there. There’s a common goal and then there’s moderation. But there’s also this decentralization of power where we have the power quote-unquote in terms of like we will step in to delete a comment or to kick someone out if it needs to get to that point, you know, to talk to someone and say, hey, this isn’t OK. But beyond that, we’re not controlling what the group does. It’s its own ecosystem and that’s the whole point, is for there to be community there that is self-evolving. That like, whatever the community needs at the time, it can get because it can make the decision about what that is.

Nichole [01:19:38] So I just say, like, you know, there’s- it’s very hard sometimes with organizing, especially in-person stuff, to feel like, oh, this thing worked and so this has to be the thing forever. But I think with really good organizing, and whether it’s around actual actions like activism that’s actions, or activism that’s just sharing knowledge and group discussions. Or just a social group so you can meet other cool people who like are vegan and also like board games, or anarchists who, you know, fucking love books or whatever. Like sci-fi movies, you know, whatever your thing is, like I think that you always have to make space for letting someone else help carry the burden, but then also understanding that, like, you have to be open to other ideas and opinions and voices. And you have to go with your gut. You have to always look back to your common goal, cause that should generally stay the same, right? It may be modified a bit over time, but like you have to always go back to that and say like, oh, are we still meeting this? Do we need to revisit this? Do we need to renegotiate this as a community?

Nichole [01:20:39] And you know, we kind of did this. I think Callie cause she went out and posted on the group last week I think, about like should we keep the group name? Should we change the name to the new podcast? Should, you know what does the community want to do here with this, with this group? And like we’re open to what that is and we’re open to suggestions and ideas because we care about what the group wants, not what we want, you know? And the solution might be that we have to release the group fully and let it be self-sustaining. Let it moderate itself because we can’t manage, you know, multiple groups that are that big.

Callie [01:21:17] And then kind of disconnected from us.

Nichole [01:21:19] And then just release it into the wild. You know, and be like, good luck little one, we love you. You know, and just hope that it’s like, is what it is. But I think that’s how you have to lead with things like this. You have to, you know, you have to be the spark. You have to set the safe place. But then you also have to be flexible enough to let it be what it’s gonna be.

Callie [01:21:42] Yeah. To take yourself out of it. Yeah, to a certain extent.

Nichole [01:21:45] Yeah. And it may work for a while and then it may not work. And you may have to just close it down and do a different thing, like that’s pretty natural.

Callie [01:21:52] And yeah, that’s not a bad thing either. Like we tend to think that like if something doesn’t last forever, then it’s a failure. And that’s just not true, you know? Things can end at a, you know, natural kind of ending point or fade away or things can change completely. And I don’t know, we just need to be much more open to those types of things, you know?

Nichole [01:22:15] Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, just find something real fun. If it’s social, find something fun to do. And if it’s activism like, figure out your way of doing this thing where you’re gonna be passionate about it for a while.

Callie [01:22:30] Yeah. I honestly think of all we’ve talked about I like that point the most because-

Nichole [01:22:36] It’s the biggest thing.

Callie [01:22:37] It’s really hard. I don’t want to say this and then have anyone feel like dejected or whatever. But it’s like capturing lightning in a bottle, sometimes trying to, like, get a thing off right, like up on its feet and sustaining itself. And it’s really hard to, like, generate- I mean, how many groups have you probably joined throughout your life that just like never quite got going or they kind of started out and then fizzled. Or they become something else or a bad element takes over and it just kind of becomes like, this is not what it was meant to be. So it’s like, don’t beat yourself up if it doesn’t work out, because that’s like common. But also, I think the best way to try to prevent that is Nicole’s advice, like find something that you really love and are passion about, because that’s gonna be the best way to like connect with others and then have enough momentum and excitement to, like, keep it going. And keep a focus long enough to like give it a chance to like grow some roots, you know?

Nichole [01:23:41] Yes.

Callie [01:23:41] God, I have mixed so many metaphors.

Nichole [01:23:43] It’s alright.

Callie [01:23:45] In such a short span of time. But it does take a while.

Nichole [01:23:49] Yeah, it does.

Callie [01:23:50] I mean, it took a really long time for the group to like where we are kind of out of it. Like in the beginning we were a lot more active in it and making posts and sharing things. And now I like hardly ever post in there. And it’s kind of by design, you know. Now cause I’m like, well this is kind of weird. Now I’m like this, I don’t know. Anyway, that’s a whole other thing. But it’s just like it does take a while to make something like kind of get to the point where it can kind of keep going on its own. But like finding something that you really love is the best, best chance you have.

Nichole [01:24:24] Yeah. Yeah, like we I think were messaging back and forth with a listener a while ago and talking about a very similar topic of like starting a group. And you know, they were saying how they’re like queer and all this, and I was like you know, somehow in the conversation came up. It was like, maybe you have like a queer potluck… I forget what it was, but it just was an event that I was like, I would fucking go to this. You know, like you just wanna, don’t worry about being too specific.

Callie [01:24:53] Yeah, specific is good actually.

Nichole [01:24:53] Because even people who don’t, yeah. Even people who don’t exactly identify that way, if they’re drawn to that, like then you’re gonna be good. Like the more specific you are, if someone still shows up than you’re, then that’s like perfect. And I’m very big on, I may have talked about it before but like, you know, I do training at work and I have to work with marketing to like advertise the training and, or at my old job, ha now that I’m unemployed. Like tell people what it is exactly. And like people get afraid of being too specific but that’s where you get like the right people in the door right away. And you’re gonna have so much more success and so much better flow and so much better, like ideas and community building, is like when people know what the fuck they’re coming for. That’s why this show is called Bitchy Shitshow. That’s why our last show was called Vegan Warrior Princesses Attack. You know what I mean?

Callie [01:25:52] Yeah. Tryna be real upfront about things.

Nichole [01:25:55] Everything we do. You know, and I know marketing, capitalism like you know, it can be gross, but like it also can be consent, ah-ha!

Callie [01:26:05] I know, I’ve been like bighting back laughter because I’m like I feel like this is such a perfect segue into our topic.

Nichole [01:26:13] Yeah, we’re getting there! Yes so tell people what you want and what they’re gonna get. Right, and make space for that to be a bit of a negotiation and an ongoing relationship. You guys don’t even know how good this segue is! But then that’s where you really build community and you’ll be like, holy shit, like, you know. And whatever marketing you do, so to speak, however you get the word out to find people to come to the thing, yeah just make it super honest, make it sound fun but like, just really tell them what the fuck it is.

Nichole [01:26:49] Like I actually would love to get back to this now that I have a little bit more energy, but I was part of a Active Nerdy Vegans in San Diego group. And this group had like all these different, I think this is what happened, is they started probably somewhat small and then it grew so big that they have all these different like essentially subgroups. They all post their events in the same place. But you have a group for people who just go to the movies to watch movies together and they watch like nerdy movies. And then you have a group that plays board games, and then you have a group that goes hiking and like you have all these subgroups. So the common goal of the group is to be with other people who are nerds, first of all. To kind of break nerdy stereotypes, right. Like we’re all different types of people. Some of us are nerds who like to go work out, right? Like we can do all kinds of different things.

Nichole [01:27:42] But also one of the things that drew me to the group is it has a very much like, this is not a space for you to just mack on people atmosphere. So when you go to events, yes, you could potentially meet someone to date there. But it’s made very clear that the vibe there should not be that. Like you should not walk in and then think, oh fuck, I’ve got like- especially with nerds cause nerds, we’re fucking horny. I don’t think people understand how freaky nerds are. Like they’re… A lot. And especially when you’re a new nerd to the group, it’s like blood is in the water, right?

Callie [01:28:16] Yeah, fresh meat.

Nichole [01:28:16] Yeah. So I went to a few events and I was just so happy to be like, wow, I actually just felt like a person meeting other people here. So like, but that’s because they’re very clear about that. And then the people who moderate the group, the people who like run the groups, right, like they keep an eye for that. So if someone’s being a fucking creep or someone’s like hitting on a bunch people, they’re like, yo, you got to stop or you gotta go. So anyway, yeah just be super specific. Make it sound fun. Be open to decentralizing and having collaborators. If you have a friend who maybe wants to start a group too, like can you collaborate? Or if your first few people come, if there’s one person who’s like, this is great, I’d love to be involved. Invite them in, let the community guide it. Bond over a common goal. Provide a safe space and you’ll be good. Yeah.

Callie [01:29:05] Yeah. Mm hmm.

Nichole [01:29:06] So, a lot of this applies…

Callie [01:29:11] Yes.

Nichole [01:29:11] To bumping uglies. Just rubbing them all over each other.

Callie [01:29:19] I mean, that’s not really the point.

Nichole [01:29:22] It’s a perfect…. It’s the perfect segue, OK? My segue was perfect.

Callie [01:29:26] Yeah. Please don’t ever…

Nichole [01:29:28] I know. I didn’t fully commit to the accent because I knew I would trigger you, I’m sorry.

Callie [01:29:33] I’m so traumatized by everyone now, like trying to do some sort of impersonation of Trump. And I’m like, I am trying to get away from that fucker. Like not have everyone, like every time I even see his face now or someone does the accent, I’m like I can’t.

Nichole [01:29:49] I’ll do Bernie instead.

Callie [01:29:49] I, yes, please do.

Nichole [01:29:52] I’ll stick to that.

Callie [01:29:52] I will, I’m here for-

Nichole [01:29:53] My Bernie comes and goes but sometimes it’s like really on point.

Callie [01:29:56] Yeah.

Nichole [01:29:58] Um yes.

Callie [01:29:59] So today’s topic.

Nichole [01:29:59] Today’s topic.

Callie [01:30:00] We are, OK, literally so excited about this. We have been wanting to like do this topic for fucking ever. And then when we decided we were gonna do this Love & Sex series, you know, in the month of February because we’re marketing geniuses and totes professional.

Nichole [01:30:17] Listen, it’s topical topics on here, OK? It’s top tops, we’re on it.

Callie [01:30:23] Yeah. So, I mean, obviously, there is a lot to be said online about like hookup culture and dating.

Nichole [01:30:28] So much.

Callie [01:30:29] And all of this stuff. But we have, I think, what is going to end up being a unique take on the whole topic.

Nichole [01:30:37] Yes.

Callie [01:30:38] And that is, and I’m just, because we practice consent up in this bitch. I’m just gonna tell you what the point is and then we’ll get into it later. So like not labeling things is bad consent.

Nichole [01:30:50] Fuck.

Callie [01:30:50] Sorry, not sorry.

Nichole [01:30:52] It’s a hot take.

Callie [01:30:54] I, like I very much feel strongly that not allowing a person to like have any sort of insight into what you want is really shitty. It’s like bad consent. It’s not allowing them to like even consent to anything because they don’t know what you’re fucking thinking. Like they don’t know what you want. And like before y’all come for us or send us any of the e-mails, let me explain. So obviously, because we also practice nuance up in here, we are not saying that you have to know exactly what you want at all moments all of the time. Like, and honestly, I’m really sick of people talking about things in that way where they’re like, “Oh, well if I don’t know,” nobody knows! No relationship is a guarantee. When you meet someone new, whether it’s a friendship or whether it’s something that could be like more than just friendship. You don’t know, there’s no guarantee of what it’s gonna become.

Callie [01:31:59] So I really hate this idea that like, people just want to be like, well, I don’t know, I’m up for whatever. And it’s like, yeah, but what like, direction do you even think you want to go in? Like, are you someone, I was just having this conversation with a friend. Like are you someone who definitely right now does not want any sort of committed relationship? Because like congratulations, that’s a thing you know that you can communicate to a potential partner if you do just want casual. But this whole idea of like I’m not going to tell you what direction I’m even going in because I don’t know, because then that’s like, making some sort of guarantee to the person. It’s like that’s, you’re not signing a blood oath.

Callie [01:32:40] That if you’re like, oh, because I’m someone out here, at this stage of my life, I’m ready for like a committed relationship. Ideally, I would like to find my person. Right? But like, if I meet someone and tell them that and we go on a few dates, like I’ve not just said you are that person. Like I’ve not committed to you for life. Like, I don’t know why I get these looks where people look at me like I’m a fucking alien or I’m trying to trap them. I’m like, we’ve still got to get to know each other. There’s no guarantee that that’s where this is actually going. Or we may really like each other and have chemistry but a few dates in we realize like we don’t really get along that well. And then we just part ways amicably. It’s just so weird to me that communicating that you want something more serious or committed is like some like trap on the other person.

Nichole [01:33:34] Right.

Callie [01:33:35] There’s no guarantee. I’m just trying to tell you what I’m looking for. If you know that you are definitely not looking for that, then we just like don’t even have to bother. Right? We just like, wish each other well and don’t waste each other’s fucking time.

Nichole [01:33:51] Yeah. Yeah, if you’re here trying to fuck.

Callie [01:33:54] Right, only.

Nichole [01:33:55] And I’m here trying to like, date.

Callie [01:33:56] Right. Right.

Nichole [01:33:59] Then just say that. And who knows, maybe by the end of this drink, I might be down to fuck too.

Callie [01:34:05] Right!

Nichole [01:34:05] But like fuckin say it.

Callie [01:34:07] Yeah.

Nichole [01:34:07] And then you know that I’m evaluating you in terms of a partner.

Callie [01:34:12] Right.

Nichole [01:34:13] Because that’s the point too. Again, unite under a common goal, y’all. If I’m out here-

Callie [01:34:19] Call back!

Nichole [01:34:22] Remember that? Remember that from a few-

Callie [01:34:22] From like 10 minutes ago.

Nichole [01:34:25] That’s what I hate too, is like people act like you’re a fuckin alien if you’re like, oh, I’m like evaluating you and this in terms of like, if this would work long term. And people are like, whoa it’s only the third date, or whatever. And it’s like, yeah but now I have three dates worth of information about like if you show up on time. Is it easy to make plans with you? Do you say things but then the next time you say something a little bit different that changes the context and I don’t quite know where you stand on stuff. I get that from people all the time because I ask a lot of questions and I pay attention to people’s answers and people are shifty as fuck. And they don’t even know it. Like they don’t even know that they’re communicating that they don’t have a solid stance on stuff or that they’re being shady.

Nichole [01:35:11] And so I’ll be like, oh, like, what’s up with this? And then it’s like, whoa, what are you like reading my mind? And it’s like, no, that’s not a thing people can do. So what I’m doing is talking and listening because that’s how people get to find out what’s in each other’s head bones. Right?! I can’t reach in there. You gotta tell me. And I’m just paying attention to what you’re fucking saying, and you’re being dodgy and I’m calling you on it. And then it’s like, well, like what, this doesn’t need to be that serious. It’s like, no, it doesn’t need to be. But I don’t want to waste my time with someone who is already one, two, three dates in, making me feel like I need to pay attention, like I need to watch you because you’re being dodgy.

Nichole [01:35:59] Or you’re being disrespectful by like making it difficult for me to make- well, I shouldn’t even say disrespectful. I need from someone for it to be easy for us to make plans. Let me say it, that’s much less judgy. Because of my own stuff, right? Because one, I’m a planner in a sense. And then two, I have chronic illness. I need to know when things are happening and what those things are gonna be. I can be spontaneous sometimes, but for the most part I need to know what my week looks like because I have to budget my energy and all kinds of stuff. So I need someone who’s gonna bring that to the table. And you can’t tell me when you’re already not doing it in the beginning when we’re both supposed to be pretending to be more perfect versions of our self-

Callie [01:36:43] On our best behavior, yeah.

Nichole [01:36:45] Right, you’re already not doing it, that I’m being a weirdo for being like, not for me. Thank you. You know, but if we’re just fucking and that’s what we’ve agreed to, whole different ballgame. I can let all that shit go. Although still, if I’m going to be fucking, you better be able to make a plan to fuck. There’s a lot of work that goes into that.

Callie [01:37:06] Yeah. Yeah, be somewhat reliable.

Nichole [01:37:07] Yeah.

Callie [01:37:08] Yeah. I just really don’t like this idea that there’s something like… Like desperate or like gross about someone who’s willing to actually, like who’s done the work to know themselves and what they’re looking for or what their capacity is at the time for what they want. It’s just so weird to me. Like I even was having a conversation with my therapist a while back and I was like telling her, and I was like, I don’t want to, like, waste my time on someone that I know is not going to work out. Like and I don’t know, and she was kind of doing that thing where she’s like, but how do you know it’s not going work out? I’m like, well, I’m not going to like date a fucking born again. Like, I know that that shit’s not gonna work out. You know? Or like, I’m not going to date someone who doesn’t like have very similar political beliefs than me because like, especially if I’m evaluating you on like a partner level and not just like, oh, you’re cool, like we can fuck. But even then don’t fuck Republicans.

Nichole [01:38:07] Maybe like a hate-fuck sometimes though can be really fun?

Callie [01:38:11] Maybe.

Nichole [01:38:11] Maybe?

Callie [01:38:12] But even then, you should have, like you should know that going into it.

Nichole [01:38:15] We’re mutually hate-fucking each other, that should be the deal.

Callie [01:38:18] Right. Or like I am very careful around, and this is something that comes up a lot online because I’m on OkCupid. And one of the things I have in my, which I like because until it became more tinder like it really was based on like putting a lot of your information and what you are looking for out and letting people like read that. But like, I don’t ever want kids. Like, ever. Like ever, ever.

Nichole [01:38:44] Same.

Callie [01:38:44] It’s not a thing I’m gonna change my mind about, OK? So like if I am looking at someone’s profile and they either definitely do want kids or they maybe want kids, I’m swiping left. I’m sorry. Like if you’re not being on it, like if you don’t want kids but you’re putting maybe because you’re hoping to like trap someone who does want kids, like that’s fucking shady and I’m not going to date you because now I can’t trust you to be honest. Or if you’re someone who genuinely does want kids and I don’t, I don’t want to like rip both of our hearts out in three years when you’re ready for us to, like, take the next step and have a family, and I’m like, I told you from day one, I never wanted kids. And I don’t know what’s so wrong about that. It’s just so weird to me because I’m like, that is allowing someone to, like, really know you and consent to moving forward. Do that work now before you have fallen in love with each other.

Callie [01:39:41] I had, I knew someone who like, these two people fell in love with each other and they were so clearly not a match. And they dated for like 10 years and it recently ended. And I feel so bad for my friend in particular, but just both of them in general cause I’m like, really like they didn’t talk enough in the beginning to really get to know each other. And then when the writing was on the wall that they really wanted different things out of life, they were already in love. And it’s really hard, not impossible, but it’s really hard to walk away from someone once you already have those love feelings.

Nichole [01:40:21] Absolutely.

Callie [01:40:21] Especially because our media shows us that, like you don’t leave a loving relationship unless it’s like bad. Like unless someone’s cheated or you like hate the other person or they’ve betrayed you in some way. Right, like you stay where there is still love and so they stayed. But it’s like I don’t, that’s just like worst case scenario to me. Like, I just can’t imagine anything worse than actually finding someone that things are working out for and then realizing there’s this like immovable thing in our path. Where I’m never going to change my mind and they’re never going to change their mind. Like, why put yourself through that? So like, be honest about what you want.

Nichole [01:41:01] Yes. And get clear on the fact that someone sacrificing what they want for you is not romantic.

Callie [01:41:09] No!!

Nichole [01:41:09] There’s so much narrative around that.

Callie [01:41:12] God, that is such a good point!

Nichole [01:41:14] Right? Like there’s so many, how many fucking movies and shows and stuff where it’s like a couple has a thing like that and then one person just like gives in and then it’s seen as like the right thing to do.

Callie [01:41:26] Oh god, yeah.

Nichole [01:41:26] And you know, I had like a small experience with this last year because I dated someone and same thing. I was like right out the gate, I’m like, I am not looking for something serious. Like this could be just a fun thing right now. And also, like, I never want kids. And this person was like, desperately wants kids. So that’s why for me, I was like, well I like you and I think we’d have a lot of fun together. But like, this is not gonna be a thing. Right, like clearly like we have two different paths. And this person was like, well, maybe, you know… I could just tell that they thought like, oh, you’ll change your mind, first of all. And then they’re like, well, maybe I’ll change my mind. Like, if this relationship is good enough, then I could just live without that. And I was like, or we could just not get into that fucking mess right now.

Callie [01:42:15] Yeah.

Nichole [01:42:15] Right?

Callie [01:42:16] No, I mean they even went a step-

Nichole [01:42:17] Let’s not start from that.

Callie [01:42:18] Yeah. They went a step further and then told you that they were okay never having kids.

Nichole [01:42:24] Yes. And this was like before, like we, it wasn’t even like years in where it’s like… Yeah. And it just was very… And then we had conversations about like, it kept getting more serious than I wanted. And I would be like, hey, like it’s okay that you’re feeling this way but like I’m feeling like this is way more than I signed up for. And I told you that and so I’m going to take a step back. Or like, maybe we should just not do this. And then they would be like, no, no, no, like, let’s, like, okay, fine. Like, let’s… And also, like, I’ve been trying to explore my queerness and I just didn’t want to have to explain any of that to someone. But I really didn’t want my queerness to be erased. And that was what was happening as well.

Nichole [01:43:06] For me, it was like, oh, this could be a nice way to have companionship and have, you know, someone to hang out with sometimes. Someone that I genuinely, like I still like adore this person. I really have like a very deep affection for them. And I really did love being around them, but it just wasn’t in the way that they needed it to be. And like, I couldn’t, I didn’t want to fill the role that they needed me to fill. And then they weren’t seeing that, like they seemed to very much buy into the idea that me giving up stuff for them was the romantic right thing to do. Right, like they were gonna put in the work and then I was gonna fall in love enough that I was gonna be like, you’re right. Like, let’s have a baby or let’s get married or let’s, you know, let me give up the show or like doing it less because it’s taking time away from you.

Nichole [01:43:57] Which is insane. Like anyone who knows me for five minutes would be like that is a core part of her entire being and I better get onboard. Because I better, not even get on board. Like you need to like love that about me because it is a core part of who I am. I’m always doing creative projects. I’m always into something. Callie and I travel. We do a bunch of shit. We do the show, like this is all of Sunday every week at least.

Callie [01:44:23] Yeah you will never get a Sunday with Nichole if you’re dating.

Nichole [01:44:26] And you need to not only be okay with that, but you need to like love that about me. And there are people out there who do. Like, you know, stuff hasn’t worked out. I’m also like not actively looking for my person, but I’m like, you know, metaphorically looking for my person. And it’s like, but I have dated people where like things haven’t worked for other reasons, but they like literally legitimately love this about me.

Callie [01:44:50] Yeah, embraced it.

Nichole [01:44:51] They love it about me. And they like listen to the show and/or they like want to talk to me about what topics I’m thinking about. And they are down to talk about it. And they love it about me. And like, so that’s out there. And then that’s kind of part of your thing, too, is like not only do people treat you like you’re this desperate, you know, person who’s trying to, like lock people down into marriage when you’re open about what you want, but they also treat you like you’re fucking arrogant and like asking for the whole like world. And it’s like, no, I, there are definitely people out there who will be chill with who I am and like, love it and want what I want. And yeah, it might be a smaller population, but like, of course.

Nichole [01:45:37] You know, that’s the problem is people like have this abundance… Well, they have a scarcity mentality and it causes them to cast the net too wide. And then that’s when you see people who it’s like, oh, you wanted to get married and then you did, but you and your partner are fighting all the time because you’re not actually a good fit, right? Like you’re not actually into each other the way that you could be, to be like in this lifelong monogamous commitment if that’s your thing. So there’s all of that.

Callie [01:46:10] So the next thing I want to talk about is obviously related, but kind of on a somewhat different track. And it’s that it’s OK not to know specifically what you want. Because I hope that didn’t come across, that like I’m saying all people all the time need to know exactly what they’re ready for. Because I know there’s also a lot of times where you may feel like, oh, I’m not in a good headspace for a relationship, but then you find someone, you’re like, fuck, this is just like… This is what we’re doing. Like, you know, we’ve both changed our minds. We’ve all seen like No Strings Attached kind of movies. Like, we know that sometimes that happens. Just kidding. Those movies are trash.

Callie [01:46:48] But it’s okay not to know what you want, but is that actually honest? Is the question that I would like pose to all of you. And frankly, all of Tinder. Because I feel very strongly that most people when they say that, aren’t really being honest with themselves and doing a gut check. I think a lot of times, like people are keeping things casual or they say they don’t want to label things because like, to be real, they’re just too fucking scared to admit that they’re lonely or that they’re like craving intimacy. And that’s to me what like even more reinforces that it’s like not practicing good consent by not talking about these sort of things, or having this like kind of negative dismissive view of anyone who is willing to talk about what they want.

Callie [01:47:42] Because it’s like, our generation is so, you know, we’re really grappling, we forget that like the internet and all this stuff is so new to us. And like, we don’t fully understand yet what it’s like doing to the way that we, like, connect with each other, what it’s doing to our communication skills. But we do see that like people are having less close friends than they have in generations. Most people are down to one. A lot of people are down to no close friends. Like a lot of people are reporting that they don’t feel like they even have one person that they can really go to no matter what. And we’re actually even though we’re seen as like this very sexed up generation, like people are actually having less sex than they used to before.

Callie [01:48:29] And I think a lot of this is due to like economic stuff, like the fact that most of us came to age, came of age like in the millennial and Gen-Z right, in like very tough economic times. Like people are delaying starting a family, they’re delaying being married and buying a house and doing all the things that we’re supposed to do. So I think that’s a pressure. But I think a lot of is just like we’re all just really grappling with like what happens to our psyches when instead of having like a few connections and like kind of staying, like knowing the people in our towns or cities. Now you’re connecting with like thousands of people all over the world. And we really don’t know like what the result of that is. And so people do this thing where they’re like, oh, I just, I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t want to label things. And they want to seem like really cool and chill. But then they start like immediately treating you like you’re, like it’s a serious relationship. And they’re like, oh, I want to keep things casual and I don’t want a significant other. But then they’re texting you every day.

Nichole [01:49:28] Every fucking day. All day long. I would not even text my spouse that much, I would be like get away from me.

Callie [01:49:39] Right. Yeah. And then they, you know, they’re doing all these things where they’re telling you that they want one sort of relationship, but they’re treating you in a very different way.

Nichole [01:49:51] Yes, yes.

Callie [01:49:51] And I think that’s, it’s bad consent, it’s manipulative, it’s like opening yourself up for just heartbreak because the other person or you may catch feelings. Just something we’re also going to talk about. When you didn’t intend it because you’re not treating the other person in a way that like kind of reaffirms, in the same way we talked about what kind of group are you establishing and laying ground rules. Like if you’re someone you like, I’m not looking for something serious, I just want something casual. But then you start like blowing them up every day and telling them about your day and like talking to them about like family drama and just going overboard with sharing details and forging a connection that feels like a boyfriend girlfriend type thing. That’s really shitty. Like you’re just fucking with the other person’s head, you know?

Nichole [01:50:42] And your own head.

Callie [01:50:44] And your own head! Yeah, absolutely!

Nichole [01:50:45] Like you’re not even being clear with yourself on what you want or what you’re doing.

Callie [01:50:49] Yeah.

Nichole [01:50:50] And that’s not OK. It’s not OK. I see this so much and I’m like thirty eight. I’m not a young person, OK? Not part of the youth anymore. But like even people my age do this. Like it’s not like a young-

Callie [01:51:07] No, it’s not just a young person thing.

Nichole [01:51:08] Like I don’t want you to- It’s not like a young person talk we’re having today. It’s like people our age and lower. It’s like we’re fucked and we need to talk about it. Like we’re really fucked up around relationships and how we relate to each other. And like I see and have been the victim of so much pain and just unnecessary mess that comes from people just flailing around, not having any sense of introspection and just doing whatever the fuck they want in the moment, being impulsive with the other people in their lives. And that’s not okay. It’s okay to not know what you’re doing. Most people don’t know what they’re doing anymore. What is not okay is to not take responsibility for that. And to maybe cut yourself off for a little while, while you figure it out.

Nichole [01:51:56] Like if you’re over here and you’re like, I don’t want anything, relationships are the fucking worst, I don’t want to feel anything for anyone. And then you’re like also texting, like, good morning, sweetheart. What are you up to?

Callie [01:52:11] Mm hmm, every day.

Nichole [01:52:12] Right. To someone you met on Tinder every fucking day. You’re not being honest with yourself or that person. Like yeah, I’m not saying you necessarily do want a relationship, but you want intimacy that is not sex. And you’re not being clear with that person because I guarantee you, if that person tried to get intimacy from you, that wasn’t the same, you know what I mean? Like, you can text good morning sweetheart, every day but if they text you goodnight, sweetheart. You’re like, what a fucking, oh my god! Level five clinger! Right? And then you ghost them. That’s fucking shitty.

Nichole [01:52:48] And you’re doing it because you’re not like taking a step to say, wow, I’m lonely and I want to connect with someone and I want to feel like I have someone to reach out to in the morning. Right? I want to have someone to say good morning to. But I don’t have the faculties to have a healthy relationship. What do I do about that? What you do about that is not rub parts with somebody and confuse them and tell them one thing and then act another way and then treat them like they’re fucking crazy when they think something is going on between you. OK? You go online and read some articles, you go get a therapist, you talk to your friends, you interview an older group of people to be like, how did you, how did your kind used to do things before the internet fucked us all up?

Callie [01:53:36] Ya bunch of dinosaurs.

Nichole [01:53:38] Yeah. You bunch of fuckin dinosaurs. You know, but like you can’t just sit here, like I have been the victim of so many people just being like, I don’t know what I want! And just trying out everything. I have literally been with someone who treated me like his wife. And I’m not exaggerating.

Callie [01:53:53] No, you’re not.

Nichole [01:53:54] Like he treated me like his wife and he loved me. He doted on me. But would not call me his girlfriend. For almost a year.

Callie [01:54:07] I’m like laughing but it’s like not funny because I’ve been in so many similar situations.

Nichole [01:54:13] Right? I bet most of you listening are like, oh yeah.

Callie [01:54:16] Yep, nodding your head.

Nichole [01:54:16] I’ve been in one of those. Or I’ve been that person.

Callie [01:54:19] Right.

Nichole [01:54:19] Right?

Callie [01:54:20] Right.

Nichole [01:54:21] And you know what? Like, shame on me. Part of my journey was to learn to not put up with that kind of shenanigans anymore, right? Like you have to have the wherewithal to step away from someone who’s sending you mixed signals and doing this shit. But that doesn’t change that person being out there, weaponizing their loneliness against other people and not being clear. And it’s even down to people who do actually just want to fuck. And like actually do just fuck and then like leave. You need to tell me if you’re masturbating with my body or if we’re gonna have consensual fun sex because those are two different things.

Callie [01:54:59] Yessss girl! Yes!

Nichole [01:55:00] Because I am not consenting to someone masturbating with my body. I’m not. That’s not fun for me. I don’t like it. Some people do. No, some people do. That’s the thing. Like they want to be used, right? They don’t care about getting off. They want just like anonymous-

Callie [01:55:16] I would say a lot less people than is actually happening to.

Nichole [01:55:20] Oh. One hundred percent.

Callie [01:55:23] Like significantly less.

Nichole [01:55:24] Yes. But be clear.

Callie [01:55:26] Yeah.

Nichole [01:55:27] Even if it’s just a one night thing. Even if it’s literally like Grinder, Tinder, what have you and it’s like come over and fuck me daddy, say, I am actually not going to care about your pleasure. I’m literally gonna come over and nut and fucking leave and not give a shit. And some people will be like, get the fuck over here. A lot of people would probably be like, no thanks. I don’t need to masturbate after I’ve been fucked, OK?

Callie [01:55:58] You shouldn’t need to.

Nichole [01:56:00] That happens sometimes, it’s OK. Sometimes things happen, you know. But that should not be, like if I’m- And this is how I feel. Like I said, we have friends who like hook up like this all the time and don’t get off and are like, that is part of, they’re fine with it. I’m not fine with that. I’m not. You gonna come over here, you’re gonna work, OK? And I’m going to work, too. It’s gonna be fun. But like, yeah, I shouldn’t have to masturbate to get off after a sexual experience because you’re just coming here to like, literally not even see my personhood. But just like you have this weird, I don’t know if it’s like a primal drive to just like, be against another body. Like versus like, why don’t you just jerk off or rub one out, you know? Whatever, but that’s the thing, too, is like addressing, you know, if you just want to, like, masturbate with a person’s body, you need to communicate that and let them, this is where the consent comes in because I bet a lot of people are saying, well, then no one would consent to that. Exactly!

Callie [01:57:04] Right.

Nichole [01:57:05] We got to it. The main thesis. Nailed it. Right? Like, yeah, most people wouldn’t consent to that. So you’re not being honest when you say, hey, I want to hook up with you. I want to come over and fuck. Because obviously the other person is expecting that to be some kind of mutually pleasurable experience. And, you know, you don’t give a fuck about that. You’ve got to be clear about that. It’s not fair. There’s a lot of like very anonymous, kind of like extremely casual sex that can happen, that can be fun as fuck. But it needs to come from a place that like, again, we have a common goal. Is our common goal for both of us to experience physical pleasure and maybe achieve orgasm? Or at least like try to work towards that? Or is it for me to come over and like literally not even see you as a person? And maybe you’re into that. People are into that. And that is totally fine. But you can’t do that to someone who isn’t into that without telling them. Because like honestly, it feels very akin to sexual assault when it happens. It is a very bad feeling. And it is not something someone consented to. It is not OK. It’s extremely, wildly irresponsible to do that to somebody. And yet it is so commonplace.

Callie [01:58:22] So common.

Nichole [01:58:22] And again, if you try to assert that, because I’ve tried to do that with people, I’m like down for casual sex, but I’m also demisexual. So it’s very rare for me to like have that happen in a way where it’s pleasurable and like something I actually want to do. And when I try to describe it to people, they always seem to think like I need to be in love to have sex. And that’s fine, too, if that’s like part of, I mean, for me, that’s the preference. My best sex is when I’m like in love with the person and there’s nothing that compares to it. But like, it’s also this weird way of like ridiculing people who just again are asserting what they know they need sexually. And so when I talk to people, I’m like, I need to have some kind of connection. I want us to like at least have a drink first. There’s gotta be a little bit of chemistry. And I’ve got to feel that even if I never see you again, that you like, genuinely enjoyed me. Right. Like you thought I was cute. You thought I was funny. We had a good rapport. We had fun in the sack. You respected me. And like, we may never talk again but like, that was a nice experience.

Callie [01:59:25] Yeah, well, because again, like that reaffirms your personhood. Like so many people are out here having sex, and I am not anti like hookup culture.

Nichole [01:59:36] No.

Callie [01:59:37] I just think that because we, so many people have this like fear of intimacy, that they are doing this thing where they’re basically like just masturbating with someone else’s body and they’re not seeing the like humanity and the person that they’re fucking. Like it does not mean that you’re weak or needy to, like, have fun with the person that you fuck, whether it’s for half an hour or like on a reoccurring basis. You know what I mean? But there should be some sort of like rapport. Unless, of course, you’ve like stated like that’s not what you’re looking for and the other person’s down with it. But it is just so weird how many people are like… Like I’ve had this happen and it literally, it disturbed me. You know, like fucking someone who like didn’t see, like it didn’t matter that I was there.

Nichole [02:00:28] Yeah. Or who you were.

Callie [02:00:30] Right.

Nichole [02:00:31] Like you were literally like a hole.

Callie [02:00:33] Yeah.

Nichole [02:00:34] Like people treat people like that.

Callie [02:00:35] It’s really fucked up. I’m like that’s not what I signed up for.

Nichole [02:00:40] And if you’re not consenting to it, yeah. If you’re not-

Callie [02:00:40] Like, I wanted sex. Like I wanted just like, this person like I didn’t know, like we were kind of chatting and it’s like, yeah, it’s a Saturday night, like-

Nichole [02:00:49] Let’s do it.

Callie [02:00:49] Yeah, I want to have sex. But this was not that. You know, and this just like happens. Like I’ve heard so many, and this does tend to be a thing that I hear from like female presenting people more that I’ve heard it on the other side. But like a lot more people would be down for hookups if there was like something in it for them. Like if it was gonna be fun. Like you, it doesn’t show that you’ve caught feelings if you care that your partner has an orgasm. Like that is so fuckin ridiculous. But literally, that’s how so many people act.

Nichole [02:01:26] Oof, that just made me really sad. I know.

Callie [02:01:26] Is like if I show your body any sort of like care or consideration, or laugh with you like sex should be fun. Or it can be. I guess should, I don’t want to like shame anyone into being too like, it should be this, it should be this, but like.

Nichole [02:01:41] Yeah.

Callie [02:01:41] You know what I mean? But yeah like it should be fun. And if you’re just like I don’t want to talk to you. I don’t want to like laugh with you. Like I don’t wanna do anything. I want to like get off and then leave. That’s really shitty.

Nichole [02:01:56] Yeah. And we’re going to talk about this next week of this idea that what people label as bad sex versus like sexual assault. And like how consent factors into that. But that’s like essentially boiling down the whole thesis is like, if I feel fucking gross after you leave something went wrong there. And we may not label it like rape or sexual assault, but like something bad transpired and a lot of it is this not communicating what the common goal was and that we were aligned on it.

Nichole [02:02:32] You know, I’ve told this story before, but I like went to a bar one night with my boss. I was like traveling for business and some guys started hitting on me. And he was, you know, just he like came up and was like talking about my earrings that I was wearing, cause I always wear, like, I have like a very eclectic style and I’m always wearing something like interesting. And, you know, he was just like, oh, you’re so interesting, like, I just want to, like, talk to you. And he made it very clear that he was like looking to fuck. And I was like, well, it takes me a little while, like, I’m not someone who can just, like, jump into bed this second. And he’s like, well, let’s hang out for a couple hours and, you know, he’s like, you’re the person I’m interested in tonight. So I’ll either have sex with you if you want to, you’re like into it, or I won’t. And like I’ll have gotten to spend the night with you. Like, either way, it’s fine.

Callie [02:03:17] Yeah.

Nichole [02:03:17] And like, that was great. And he absolutely could have been like, well, I’m just looking to get laid, I don’t want to have a conversation. Although again, I don’t want to judge, but I also, like if you’re like going out trying to find someone to sleep with and you can’t even be bothered to like have a conversation with them first, it just, I don’t know. I think that maybe that’s OK. But that to me feels more like an app thing. Like we’re both on here looking for a piece.

Callie [02:03:46] But even then.

Nichole [02:03:46] Or like maybe a sex club or something. I just, it feels weird to me, like someone at a bar. Because there’s, I don’t know. There’s just such a- and probably too it’s because I’m someone who like obviously constantly has to think about being raped and killed. I don’t know. It just feels weird to me if you’re like I want to fuck but like I can’t even be bothered to spend like 30 minutes for us to warm up to each other. But again, he could have said that. He could have been like, I you know, I’m not going to waste my time on something that isn’t a done deal so I’m going to move on. And I would have been like, cool have a good night, you know? So it’s just that’s the thing. Like and we had a one night stand and it was fine and like, great.

Callie [02:04:27] Yeah.

Nichole [02:04:28] Like we both knew, cause I warmed up and then I was like, yeah, you know what? Yeah, let’s do it. Like come back to my room and like let’s have fun.

Callie [02:04:37] Yeah. And obviously I’ll repeat again, not to shame anyone cause like your preference is your preference, but like you know, I’ve had one night stands that are great and they were fun and I think of them fondly. And then there are ones that I don’t.

Nichole [02:04:52] Yeah.

Callie [02:04:53] Because it rides that line of like I just don’t feel like at the end of it, like my humanity was considered, you know? And that didn’t mean I needed to be like wined and dined or anything like that.

Nichole [02:05:08] Sixty-nined? Is that [inaudible]?

Callie [02:05:14] Listen, no one’s out here actually doing the 69.

Nichole [02:05:19] I know. Girl, I know.

Callie [02:05:19] That’s such a porn thing or a teenager thing and then you’re like why? Why am I doing this?

Nichole [02:05:24] I know. Me and my first boyfriend, we were both virgins when we like fucked. And we used to 69 all the time and I just think back on that and I was like, that was such like a virgin teenager thing.

Callie [02:05:39] Oh my goodness.

Nichole [02:05:40] Too funny.

Callie [02:05:41] Yeah. So, yeah, it’s not about like having to be like lulled into sex, and it’s not in this gross like heteronormative way of like the guy has to like, pull out all the stops and make her feel like a lady and then she’ll like, you know, you pay for dinner and she’ll- no. It’s not like that. It literally can mean like in your example of like, yeah, you meet someone at a bar but you guys hit it off, there’s some chemistry. You both know what it is because you’re both able to consent to the dynamic. Not only, because that’s the part I wanted to communicate on this episode. Is we are so lacking in understanding of consent that we are still trying to grapple with just consent over doing the act, and not even just like consent over the dynamic. Like what are you walking into? Or what are they walking into and like the dynamic that they’re trying to create? Like that is so… That should always be part of the conversation.

Nichole [02:06:44] Right.

Callie [02:06:45] You know?

Nichole [02:06:46] Yeah. And I think kind of tied into that, to like, work it in, is the like whole concept of catching feelings and talking about it like it’s catching the flu or something. Is this idea that like you’re going into a situation with another whole human being, assuming that you can control the outcome, of yourself and that person. And that’s kind of like, walks a pretty concerning line. Right, like you can, yeah, you can be like, hey, I want this to be one thing, whatever, but like you can’t, like maybe you’re gonna really like that person. Maybe you’re gonna be having sex and laughing and like, that’s fine. And it’s just weird to me that, like, that’s where the dehumanization comes in. Because people who are so, like talk about catching feelings like it’s the worst fucking thing that could ever happen to you, are inherently going to be dehumanizing the people that they’re with because they’re that afraid of it. So like, the only way I know that I can get out of this without feeling anything for you is to like dehumanize you. And I think we need to just like-

Callie [02:07:59] Treat your body like an object.

Nichole [02:08:03] Oof, girl. That just like took all the wind out of me. Yeah. So my issue here is that like it occurs to me that we’re, rather than like use this sexual liberation right, because that’s like the category it falls under, which I would argue is like, it’s not actually very liberating.

Callie [02:08:23] Yeah.

Nichole [02:08:24] Because you’re not, that’s the thing too is like people still equate like how many people you’ve slept with, with like how experienced you are and how good you might be at sex. And like there’s no correlation first of all. Like when I fucked my ex and we were both virgins, it was still some of the best sex I had in my entire life and neither one of us knew what the fuck we were doing. It was great. And then I fuck people who have slept with many people and been like, really? So there’s no correlation. There’s so much that goes into it. And a lot of it is just communication and chemistry. Like it really is just listening to each other and communicating and like just fucking caring about the time that the other person’s having, right?

Nichole [02:09:04] But anyway, rather than using this to expand our experience of each other in relationships, it seems like this is being used to like crush and narrowly define what a relationship is, right? Because it seems like now the only way to label an interaction between two people a relationship is if it’s like what we, you and I would consider like a serious committed relationship. Right, but there used to be a lot of terms and phases that could be used before that to help define what was going on. And those terms may have changed, but it seems like people are just flat out against using any kind of defining term at all.

Callie [02:09:44] Which again, is bad consent!

Nichole [02:09:46] It’s very bad consent because it’s like what are they doing?

Callie [02:09:48] And it’s like gaslighty! Like, don’t invite me out for drinks and then say it’s not a date when it clearly is.

Nichole [02:09:56] Right.

Callie [02:09:56] And not just because, like the fact that you invited me out, but because like that is the mood. Like that’s clearly the vibe. We’re both wearing our nice shirts. You know, took a little extra time getting ready. We’re doing the date talk. We’re having fun. We’re being flirty. It’s nighttime time. Like, come on.

Nichole [02:10:16] Like, why do people think a date means like you’re getting married? A date is literally just saying that this is not platonic. That’s literally all it is.

Callie [02:10:24] Yes! Because people are so afraid of intimacy that they’re like flat out lying to each other and themselves about what things are.

Nichole [02:10:31] Like if I get asked to hang out one more time. I’m a full grown adult. OK?

Callie [02:10:42] Yeah.

Nichole [02:10:43] Don’t ask me to hang out if we both know that we’re either trying to fuck or we’re trying to get to know each other in that way. I don’t want to fucking hang out, bro. Grow up. And there’s so many easy, like you can just say you’re dating someone and that literally means what a lot of people now are calling like, not labeling things. It’s literally just you’re like getting to know each other. You’re probably seeing other people, keeping it loose. But like there is a sense that, like, there’s some ongoing building of a relationship together and getting to know each other and just like having fun together. That’s all it means. Seeing each other is a great option.

Callie [02:11:26] Again, it does not mean you’ve like consigned yourself to be-

Nichole [02:11:32] Your betrothed.

Callie [02:11:33] Like attached to this person for all of eternity. It just means you two are actively getting to know each other and seeing what things are.

Nichole [02:11:43] Yes.

Callie [02:11:44] But like having a direction in mind does not negate that. Like, it doesn’t mean that there isn’t still a way to be like, oh, like this is not what I’m looking for. Or like I thought I was looking for this, but I actually do not have the capacity. It’s just-

Nichole [02:11:59] That’s totally fine.

Callie [02:11:59] People are just, they need to get their shit together.

Nichole [02:12:03] You can say, like I know a lot of people who are like, it takes me a really long time to like get to that point with someone where I would want to have like an established relationship. Just say that. Say like, hey, I’m open if this turns into a relationship, I’m like very open to that, but like it’s going to take me a while so I’m gonna be seeing other people. I suggest you do the same. I’m down for casual sex or I’m not, you know? Like I’m down to fuck even without having those feelings. Or is that okay with you? And the other person might be like, well, I tend to develop feelings when I sleep with people so I probably wouldn’t want to sleep together unless I knew that this was like a thing. Cool. Now we know.

Callie [02:12:43] Right

Nichole [02:12:44] That is not, I mean, I’m not going to say it’s not hard because that’s extremely vulnerable in our given climate that like saying anything, you’re gunna get looked at like you’re just beamed in from outer space. But like, that is not actually even that vulnerable. That is just saying what you’re looking for. Like what your things are, what your needs are, what your expectations are. And then just this idea that we can control and prevent hurt feelings is really fucked up and it’s very symptomatic of in general, we do not have good relations- like there’s a reason people don’t have friends anymore. Right, like we don’t seem to understand and the cancel culture online, we seem to think other people need to be perfect and perfectly in line with us and that we’re never going to have an argument for them to be anything to us. Right, like we don’t know how to see people as complex, autonomous beings that like we’re going to have to sometimes work through shit with.

Nichole [02:13:51] So even in a tiny, small way, even from the first date, just saying like, well, I tend to sleep with people and then develop feelings later and I can be very communicative about that. Like if I’m starting to have feelings, I’ll let you know. But just so you know, I would be sleeping with you and other people and that it probably wouldn’t be for a while that I would even consider a relationship. And then for the other person to say, well, I’m looking for a relationship and I tend to get feelings. I think you’re cool. I’d want to hang out, but I would not want to have sex. OK! We can move forward!

Callie [02:14:26] No, I love that you just brought up like not doing that work either and us thinking that we can avoid it. Because that’s another problem, which I think it’s like, I don’t know, like chicken or egg type situation here, but the fact that people also don’t think they need to do emotional work in like any of their other relationships, too, is part of a problem. You know?

Nichole [02:14:48] Ugh girl, say it. Yes.

Callie [02:14:48] And I think that’s why people are like, oh, I’m not looking for a committed relationship because in their mind, we’ve so detached ourselves from like that is a thing, and that’s like the ultimate. Every other relationship is so far below that, and I don’t have to do any work in those. And it’s like that is just not true. Like, I don’t care if it is a casual, like y’all are hooking up in the bathroom and will never see each other an hour later, right? Or if it’s like an ongoing thing. Like there is some amount of emotional work that you do when you involve yourself with another complex human. Like we are complicated beings, we are social creatures, we have feelings. That is just how it goes.

Nichole [02:15:31] Right. That person you’re fucking in the bathroom might be fucking in the bathroom because they’re having a bad self-esteem day. And this is, you know what I mean, and that’s not like on you to fix but it’s like they’re are a whole other person like that has their own driving motivations and they may not be in a good place. They may not be thinking things through. They may be acting out of something, or they may just, like this is part of how they like explore certain things or whatever. But it’s like you have to understand that like, there is some level of like good faith that needs to happen here. There’s some level of, what’s that called, the camp fire… I think it’s called, it’s like the camp fire philosophy or something, but you like leave it better than you found it.

Callie [02:16:18] Oh right, yeah.

Nichole [02:16:19] You know, like you so, like meaning, you know, you might be sleeping with someone. And I’m not trying to malign sexual activity or like promiscuity, but like, let’s be real. It is also something that people do when they’re manic, when they’re bipolar.

Callie [02:16:32] When they’re sad.

Nichole [02:16:33] Like I’ve had that in my family and I like have a family member who has done like this in those episodes. Yeah, when you’re sad, like grieving, like you could be acting out of anything. And for someone to come in and just treat you like a piece of shit and do things with your body that you didn’t quite consent to. Like, you may have consented to sex in general, but then you don’t actually talk and they’re just kind of fucking you and you’re like, OK, I didn’t really sign up for that. You know, like again, you can’t be responsible for or control other people’s mental states, but like you can at least do your best to not make it worse or not be like shitty and just very basic communication can help with that.

Callie [02:17:17] Yeah.

Nichole [02:17:17] But we’re just so afraid. Like we’re so afraid of being the one treated like the alien from outer space, right, by being open about how we feel. And we’re just so afraid of like being judged and we’re afraid of catching feelings. And I think we’re afraid of just what that true intimacy can bring. Cause that’s real intimacy. And this fucking thing that people do where they’re texting you every day because they want a sense of intimacy, but they don’t know how to have it. Like, that’s not real intimacy, that’s just like these weird gesticulations of it. Real intimacy can be two strangers fucking in a bathroom but like having a mutual understanding of like what they’re both doing and just seeing each other as people in that moment, you know?

Callie [02:18:01] Yeah. I’ve had intimacy with people that I like don’t know more so than people I’ve like dated for an ongoing amount of time. Like you just, you don’t, this isn’t meant to sound like casual is bad and it’s never intimate. It’s to talk about like the dynamic that you create and like the open communication that you’re willing to go into a situation with, you know? And I love that you talked about to how we get mad at people for having feelings, like that’s really shitty too. Because even if you are communicating and you’re both talking about like, oh, this isn’t meant to be serious and I like, just want to have fun. But then sometimes someone catches feelings and like that’s just part of it. And maybe it doesn’t go anywhere and you choose to like end your association. But there’s this like disgust and like anger that comes from like, like you’re saying, not being able-

Nichole [02:18:57] And shaming.

Callie [02:18:57] And shaming. Yeah, not being able to control a situation or the other person’s feelings, that’s just really, I think it’s abusive honestly.

Nichole [02:19:11] I think so too.

Callie [02:19:11] I mean it’s like maybe on the lighter end of the abuse scale.

Nichole [02:19:15] Right. And not intentional. Like I know people aren’t like, oh I’m going to, like set out to be abusive to this person, but yeah.

Callie [02:19:21] If you’re shaming someone for their feelings or not allowing you two to have open communication, like that’s really wrong, you know?

Nichole [02:19:31] Yeah. And yeah, this is another place where you can just be respectful that this other person is a person. Like my situation I was talking about earlier. You know, it just continued to be apparent that the person I was dating was like wanting something different from what I wanted and really sacrificing a lot of what he was looking for to be with me. And I did get frustrated because some of the stuff he did was very manipulative. So I was like angry about like the manipulation that was happening in certain ways. But ultimately, like, I was just kind of sad for him. Cause I’m like that’s sad. Like, I know that he really enjoyed being around me. He, you know, had just gotten out of a long term relationship and that’s where a lot of this was coming from. Like he didn’t take a break in between to process stuff. Right, so he was like trying to not deal with the fact that he was alone now after being with someone for such a long time. And like having this whole life together, like they lived together and the whole thing.

Nichole [02:20:32] And so, like, I could see that and see his humanity and see that this was like just one of those sad, sweet human moments, right? That like things just aren’t lining up. And of course, you want to break up with someone and then immediately find like the love of your life and never have to look back or deal with any of it, who hasn’t felt that way? But the reality is that’s not what was happening. And I broke it off with him because I could see that this just, it felt irresponsible for me to continue to date him, even though I did enjoy being around him. And then I had to go back to being completely alone, right. But that was the best thing to do. But I did it with love. I didn’t try to shame him about his feelings. I was very firm with him cause he tried to, like, gaslight me and tell me that what I was interpreting was wrong to like keep me around.

Nichole [02:21:24] But like, yeah. There’s no reason that we need to shame other people for just having feelings. And I have news for people, I have not had any situation that lasted a while where you don’t develop some kind of feelings for the person. It may not be like this is my person, but you get used to having that person in your life in whatever capacity they’re showing up. You know, even if it’s a Saturday night fuck date, like you get used to having your Saturday night with that person. Like there’s just some level of connection that will develop. And that’s good. That means you’re not a sociopath. I mean, honestly, like that means that you’re like a human with empathy. Like that’s a good thing that that develops and that’s not something to run away from.

Callie [02:22:08] Again, we are social creatures who do bond like we do value attachments. And I don’t know why all of a sudden like attachment is like a four letter word. It’s become this like really gross like thing that we think we can like shame out of each other. And yet everyone’s like so clearly starved for it, you know? And so that’s why I wanted, like that’s why I came down strong on this episode, and that’s why I really wanted to do it is because like I am all for like emotionless, just like raw sex, if that’s what you’re looking for. But I just feel like a lot of people are lying to themselves and others and it’s not cool. You know, like admit it if you’re lonely and you just want a person around, even if it’s just a warm body in your bed to like, get off with. But like, stop acting like this. Stop lying. And let people know what’s up. Like, what’s the deal?

Nichole [02:23:14] Right. And there’s a difference between not knowing exactly what you want. Which I think is pretty honest most of the time. Like I think a lot of us are kind of, like I feel that way. I’m very happy being alone. I’ve essentially become asexual and I’m not saying that lightly. I just like, really honestly… Anyway. That’s a whole thing. But like, I know that I’m open to possibility. But if I met someone tomorrow, I probably would be like, I’m not exactly sure what I want. Like I’ve been alone a long time and the idea of getting into a relationship is exciting, but it’s also like really overwhelming. And I would probably just want to take my time. But that’s different than not knowing what the fuck you’re doing and not taking any responsibility for how you’re going about not knowing what the fuck you’re doing.

Callie [02:24:02] Yeah. Doing it carefully, or saying you don’t know what you want while also knowing like oh, but I know I don’t want a, like saying you don’t know what you want is not the same thing as I don’t want a committed relationship. Like don’t do that to people.

Nichole [02:24:16] Right. Right, like all you motherfuckers up on OKQ…OkCupid.

Callie [02:24:20] Yeah. OKC, yeah

Nichole [02:24:23] OKC. I was putting a lot of stuff together there. All you motherfuckers up on OKC who check off every single box of what you’re looking for when you know for a fucking fact you’re not looking for a long-term serious relationship, you’re just casting the widest net that you can.

Callie [02:24:42] No, I hate that shit. I hate it.

Nichole [02:24:43] Here’s what it is, OK? Stop casting wide nets.

Callie [02:24:45] Yeah. Say it!

Nichole [02:24:46] Become a person with a special lure. That communicates exactly what you want and be OK with a smaller pool of people who are gonna be down for that.

Callie [02:24:59] Yeah.

Nichole [02:24:59] We all have to get over this idea that like we all have to have the most thing ever. It’s this weird fucking like social media “like” mentality, right? Like we have to put out the content that gets all the likes. That’s not how relationships work. You want to find your people. When it comes to friends, when it comes to community, when it comes to dating, when it comes to fucking. You want to find your people. So be cool with having fewer but better options, and stop fucking everyone else up because you’re like, oh I just wanted to get all the likes and now that I have them I don’t know what to do with them and I’m freaking out.

Callie [02:25:35] Yeah. Or like, oh this doesn’t work. And it’s like, yeah, cause that’s not what you want but you won’t admit it.

Nichole [02:25:42] Exactly. Exactly. And you’re gonna fuck up. Again, it’s messy human shit. You’re gonna maybe treat someone in a way that you’re not proud of or you’re gonna maybe not communicate. You’re gonna hide that you’re developing feelings and then act out of those feelings but still not be communicating those feelings. And then the other person is gonna be like, hey, you’re acting like you have feelings and you’re gunna be like, no I’m not, I’m a robot. Right? Like things are gonna happen. I have done shitty shit… Shitty shit. I have done shitty things in relationships where I’ve acted like I’m cool with having less than what I want. And that’s really bad fucking consent. And I have had to learn that. That is not OK. It is not OK to let someone fuck me where I’m saying, oh yeah it’s great, like fine that we don’t have relationship, and then secretly inside like-

Callie [02:26:27] Hoping.

Nichole [02:26:28] They will love me one day!

Callie [02:26:30] If I just pretend I’m cool long enough, they’ll fall for my games!

Nichole [02:26:34] And I was even right because they all did end up loving me one day. But guess what? Those relationships fucking sucked. Including the one where I was basically a wife, but not even a girlfriend. You do that math cause I certainly can’t. I gave up on that four years ago.

Callie [02:26:52] Oh god.

Nichole [02:26:53] But the point is, think that what we need to see is that a lot of this is happening because people are claiming to want experiences, right? And to like not know what they want yet, and to just want to be out and having experiences. But when you’re interacting with other people this way, you’re not actually getting experience in anything. And what we need to do is use every single interaction we have in our day as a way to practice good community, good relationship building skills, good communication skills. So every person that you’re having sex with, you’re going on dates with, you’re talking to online, these are all opportunities to develop these skills that you’ll need to have healthy relationships in every avenue of your life. But particularly in romantic relationships.

Nichole [02:27:47] Because this is another problem I’ve had dating people is that people are like, I don’t want anything. And then they meet me and they’re like, super into me cause I’m fucking amazing. And then they like don’t know how to handle having feelings, right, because they’ve spent so long trying not to have feelings and managing their feelings and running away from feelings that they don’t know how to do simple things like communicate those feelings. Or they want to act like they’re not going to be jealous about something or that they’re cool with stuff that they’re not actually cool with because they’ve never let themselves have feelings about anything.

Nichole [02:28:22] You know, like you might be a more jealous person than you realize, but you don’t know because you’ve never let yourself be exposed to a situation where there is something to be jealous about. And jealousy is something we have to work through, right? Like a lot of us are, like have jealousy. And it’s again, a very ingrained, inherent part of capitalism. So like in a lot of ways, a lot of us have to work through jealousy. But you can’t do that work if you don’t even know that’s part of like what you have to work on because you’ve never given yourself a chance to get there with someone. So you have to like, I’m not saying again that you have to like date everyone you’re sleeping with. That’s not the point. But the point is like that is part of what we’re running away from when we don’t allow ourselves to treat other people like people and we don’t allow ourselves to see the humanity in other people. Is like we’re not giving ourselves any opportunity for growth or practice.

Callie [02:29:14] Oh god, such a good point.

Nichole [02:29:15] Right? So one day, oopsy, we end up fucking someone who’s like, kind of really great and now we’re like, fucking it up and gaslighting them and like fucking up their lives-

Callie [02:29:27] I need you to stop, this is too real.

Nichole [02:29:33] Is it the accuracy?

Callie [02:29:33] The accuracy.

Nichole [02:29:33] Do you feel personally attacked? Oh my god, I have to show you a meme. There was one of Baby Yoda coughing, like [coughing sound] have you seen that one?

Callie [02:29:45] Yes.

Nichole [02:29:46] With his little tongue out. And someone was like, “me: I swallowed the wrong way and then me for seven minutes”.

Callie [02:29:53] Yes!

Nichole [02:29:54] And I’m like, I feel personally attacked. I don’t know what it is. I can not even be swallowing and all of a sudden I’m choking and I’m like coughing for seven minutes. I’m like, why?

Callie [02:30:04] Yeah.

Nichole [02:30:07] But yes. We cannot be good partners or good friends or good sex partners or good play dates or anything like that, if we’re not fucking talking to each other and seeing each other as people. And so Callie and I have talked about this for a long time, like there’s so, like you can use your friendships to practice having a good romantic relationship. Relationships are not that different. Even the way you are with your coworkers isn’t wildly different from how you are with your family. The dynamics are different, but at the end of the day what makes you a good coworker is probably what also makes you like a good sister or brother or whatever, parent. Right, like this communication and this working on a common goal and like how you communicate when things are tough and how you problem solve.

Callie [02:30:55] How you practice consent.

Nichole [02:30:56] Yes.

Callie [02:30:57] Yeah. How unafraid you are of like talking about emotional stuff or working through conflict. These are all things like you can do in any of your relationships and yet people don’t think so. And then they get in a romantic relationship and they’re like, fuck, I don’t have any skills. And it’s like, yeah, you don’t.

Nichole [02:31:15] Yeah. And I’m gonna dump all of this on my romantic partner because I don’t have anywhere else to put it, cause I haven’t thought about how, you know, how am I presenting myself in the world in general? How am I interacting with people in general and can I apply that to all my relationships?

Callie [02:31:30] Yeah. We have gotta stop like prioritizing a romantic attachment, especially a monogamous one, as like so far above and beyond any, in importance and time commitment and all of that stuff, more than any other relationship. It’s just it’s really isolating us, you know? In particular, I feel like with cis het men. Like your, I feel like we’re seeing this a lot more where that’s like the only person that they can feel like safe to have emotions with, or to have intimacy with. And that’s really dangerous. You know?

Nichole [02:32:05] Yeah, it’s very dangerous. Yeah, and just with like polyamory and non-monogamy, I just think all the same rules apply. You know, like I have seen because it’s- this might get me dragged, but I do think that there is a bit of an appropriation of polyamory and non-monogamy because it’s so fucking common now. And that’s fine. And I think a big part of that is that it’s finally, these things have finally been presented as like valid-

Callie [02:32:37] Yeah, choices.

Nichole [02:32:38] Wonderful relationship structure choices. And I think that that’s great. But there, the thing is, is that like non-monogamy and polyamory take more communication.

Callie [02:32:52] More work.

Nichole [02:32:53] More respect, more work and people are seeing them as a shortcut to again, not having feelings or having to make a choice because you think there’s so many options out there, right. Like there’s always something better, so I’m just gonna be out here like fucking everybody and like having all the things. And that’s not what those relationship structures are. They’re great, they’re wonderful options. But they’re work, just like any other relationship or relationship structure, they’re work. And so like I have met and heard of multiple people who are like polyamorous but might be monogamous for the right person, but they don’t really know. Or they like don’t communicate that they’re polyamorous right away and then you kind of pick up on stuff in their profile and you’re like umm… Or like stuff that they say. And you’re like, is that a thing? And then they’re just not very clear about it. Like, that is not OK. That is not OK consent. You can’t get to know me and date me and be like dangling the promise of monogamy, but like keeping the door open for like you might just end up dating and fucking other people. And not, and then just be like what, never labeled it? That is not what polyamory is. Anyone who I’ve met who is ethically non-monogamous or polyamorous like tells me right away and lets me know like what the negotiated, you know, kind of rules or like best practices are for their relationship and everything’s very upfront and aboveboard and I love it.

Callie [02:34:27] Yeah. No I’m seeing a suspicious rise in the number of profiles of people that say that they’re not-monogamous. And I’m like…

Nichole [02:34:35] Yes. Yeah. But when you talk to them, they don’t actually- because that’s the thing. Like you talk to someone who’s polyamorous in the right way and they are immediately like, oh yeah like here’s, this is my primary, or I don’t have a primary or like blah blah blah, whatever. And then you talk to people who like are clearly just trying to do a thing, and they’re like, oh I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t really…

Callie [02:34:55] Yeah, yeah. They’re just trying to not commit.

Nichole [02:34:56] I’m just like experimenting with stuff. And it’s like, yeah, you could be still, I mean it is like an ongoing negotiation. You do have to figure out what like flavor works best for you, you know, and what specifications. But like when they have no, can’t give you anything. You’re like, you’re fucking up, like you’re just out here being a shit.

Callie [02:35:17] A fuck boy.

Nichole [02:35:18] You’re being a fuck boy.

Callie [02:35:19] Yeah.

Nichole [02:35:20] It’s a plague on our times. Catching feelings is not the plague. It’s the fuck boys.

Callie [02:35:29] That’s very true.

Nichole [02:35:30] Yeah. So yeah, just like get it together. Also I’m shocked it didn’t come into the conversation, but I did have the phrase “emotional dry humping”.

Callie [02:35:40] I know!

Nichole [02:35:41] That I’m famous for behind the scenes, that I didn’t get to work into conversation. But that’s the texting- I always have this joke too of like, hey do you wanna come to my Aunt Lisa’s funeral? But like I’m going to introduce you as like, not even a friend, you know? And Callie off-line when we were talking mentioned that this ties into a kind of emotional labor too, of like you’re putting me in this girlfriend role to make you feel like you have, or this like partner role to make you feel like you have a person, but I’m not getting anything back. And this is like a role that was just put on to me. I didn’t consent to it because, again, you’re out here being like, I don’t want to label things and I don’t want anything serious. So I say it’s like emotional dry humping because it’s like you’re kind of like rubbing at the edges or something, but it’s not the real thing and it’s not satisfying. And that’s why you just keep doing it all the time with everyone, right?

Callie [02:36:41] I know. One of the, and this is like just purely pettiness to bring this up. But one of my red flags now, and I think I might have gotten this from you or just like stuff that we’ve talked about together a lot, is like if someone instantly jumps in to like constantly messaging. Like they just like clearly want a pen pal of someone where they want to talk all of the time like all of the sudden. It’s like, I don’t even know you yet. I don’t want to check in with you four times a day and be like, how’s your day going? It’s like the same as it was three hours ago. It is… Very little has changed. But like that has become a red flag because that’s this kind of- and it’s almost like an emotional masturbation, honestly.

Nichole [02:37:25] It is!

Callie [02:37:25] You know? Where this, yeah.

Nichole [02:37:26] Exactly.

Callie [02:37:28] Emotional dry humping, where you know, people are just like I don’t want a person in my life, but also I’m lonely and bored so I’m just going to, like constantly send you these like, nothing messages all day.

Nichole [02:37:40] Yeah. It’s like you become part of a, almost like a game or an app.

Callie [02:37:44] Yeah.

Nichole [02:37:44] Right, like you’re just like this interactive part of the oxytocin burst that they need. Right, like they need to see that they have a text from someone or a message from someone. And it’s like I did not sign up for any of this. I actually have a full happy life that I need to get back to. Yeah, it’s the constant messaging is an instant no for me. And also the soliciting of selfies. And the sending of selfies. And I’m not even talking about the whole fucking dick pic issue. That’s another plague on our people. But like…

Callie [02:38:17] I’m pretty sure that that was some form of appropriation but I’ll allow it because it was so funny.

Nichole [02:38:22] Like religious though, right?

Callie [02:38:25] Yeah I know. I’m just teasing.

Nichole [02:38:27] OK. Well don’t at me, it wasn’t intentional. I’ll never say it again.

Callie [02:38:31] Doesn’t it just sound like a thing? Like a plague on our people?

Nichole [02:38:34] Yes. Yes. Someone’s gonna come for me. Um, what was I saying?

Callie [02:38:38] No, that was the whole point of this show.

Nichole [02:38:42] That’s right. I keep forgetting.

Callie [02:38:43] Yeah.

Nichole [02:38:48] Oh, yes. But if someone is sending- I learned this like, I always end up with younger people. And I promise I’m not a fucking perv. It’s just like I have a very youthful energy. And I swear to god, people my age are fucking weirdo perverts. I don’t know what happened to my generation, but like, or like my segment of the generation. But like it’s pretty brutal. Like, I literally cannot relate or have a conversation with people my own age, and I don’t know why. Unless they’re like married or something, then they’re usually cool. But then it’s like, you know, I don’t want to have a bad reputation. It’s weird. Anyway, so I’ve had a lot of experience with texting with people younger than me. And they, I don’t know what this fucking, this is like a generational thing, it makes me feel old. But it’s like, what is the deal with the selfies? I don’t get it.

Callie [02:39:39] Constantly.

Nichole [02:39:39] I took pictures, they’re online. Even people who’ve seen me in person are still constantly like, send me, what do you, like send me a picture of you at work. And it’s like, no!

Callie [02:39:49] I think it’s like a hangover from Snapchat.

Nichole [02:39:53] Yeah.

Callie [02:39:54] Cause people like message through selfies.

Nichole [02:39:55] Well and I just think it’s part of that like constant stimulation too, right? Like they send, because usually they send me a picture first, right, that’s the whole thing. And then it’s like, how about you, cutie? Can you send me one? And it’s like you literally just want someone to like, see how you look right now and respond to it and then like, give you that stimulation? And it’s like, I’m not porn. Right. I’m a person. I’m at my job right now. I am not here to stimulate you through your entire day, especially when you’re not even a person. I had someone do this to me that I met at a bar. Some little navy guy. He was so young. I was like, this is-

Callie [02:40:36] He was not that young. He wasn’t.

Nichole [02:40:39] He was like 21.

Callie [02:40:40] Behind that curtain view of Nichole, she thinks everyone is like a literal fucking infant compared to her.

Nichole [02:40:48] Callie gets so mad at me.

Callie [02:40:49] Even at like 3 years younger than her, she’ll be like, fucking baby. Like you’re just, like has no concept of like-

Nichole [02:40:55] You’re part of the youth. That’s why Callie laughs when I say young people are the youth because she’s like, what are they, six months younger that you?

Callie [02:41:03] Yeah. Yeah.

Nichole [02:41:05] It’s also like a meta commentary on our youth fetish in the United States.

Callie [02:41:10] So I’m just letting people know that don’t already, have not already figured this out about you, that this is a thing you do.

Nichole [02:41:15] That’s probably good cause-

Callie [02:41:16] Cause if they’re thinking like you literally are dating like very young people, you’re not.

Nichole [02:41:21] Like children.

Callie [02:41:21] I mean, he was probably in his like mid-twenties.

Nichole [02:41:24] I think he was… but anyway yes.

Callie [02:41:25] Which was young for you, but also like not a baby. Like by any stretch of the imagination. Like well past the age of consent. But continue.

Nichole [02:41:34] Yes. But he was very cute, and very polite and like asked me, we were out with our friends and he was like, ma’am, can I buy you a drink? And I was like, sure. Yeah, but I like gave him my number, even though I was pretty sure it wouldn’t be a thing. You know, I was like, oh let’s see. And yep, the next fuckin morning I get a fuckin selfie and a, “Hey beautiful, what are you up to today?” And, “send me a picture of you.” And I was like, goodbye.

Callie [02:42:08] Yeah.

Nichole [02:42:08] I’m not doing this. I don’t know you.

Callie [02:42:14] Right. Yeah.

Nichole [02:42:15] And even if I did, no.

Callie [02:42:17] Yeah, it’s taken years of friendship with Nichole for me to even feel, like where I don’t now second guess sending you a Marco Polo and like not giving a shit how I look. Like years.

Nichole [02:42:33] Right?

Callie [02:42:33] You know? So like no, I’m not going to be sending constant selfies. Right.

Nichole [02:42:35] Yes! Yeah. Yeah, and I’ll say that. I’m like no, I’m not presentable. And they’re like I don’t care babe. And it’s like no you do care though.

Callie [02:42:47] They do though.

Nichole [02:42:47] You want me to play this cute game where I’m like no, I’m ugly and I have bedhead. But then I send you this like perfect filtered selfie with like the lighting gently coming through the window, and like, or you know-

Callie [02:43:01] Yeah. Cause real talk, we’re not made up like that all the time.

Nichole [02:43:03] You know what girls do, and maybe the bottoms too, right? We’re all livin the same life, playing the same fucking games. You know what we do is we keep photos that we take when we’re feeling ourselves and then we just send them to everybody.

Callie [02:43:21] Yeah that’s true!

Nichole [02:43:21] So I’m sitting here with a full bush. I have aggressive pubic hair. It’s down to my fucking knee. I haven’t showered in three days. I stink. I’m wearing a literal Huggy, those things as seen on TV. The blanket that’s made into a hoodie? I have one of those. I’m wearing yoga pants that have a giant fucking hole in the back to the point where they’re almost two separate leg pieces. And you’re gonna get this photo of me with like, you know, lighting, makeup, hair did. And I’ll be- no, we’re not playing that game.

Callie [02:43:58] Yeah, because what I’m not going to do is go take a shower-

Nichole [02:44:01] Cause I’m gunna run out of pictures.

Callie [02:44:01] And go get ready to make it look like I was just hanging out like this.

Nichole [02:44:05] Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Callie [02:44:06] You’re going to get a pre-staged.

Nichole [02:44:08] Yeah, you get a picture 60 minutes later. And I’m like, just being casual. Just woke up. No.

Callie [02:44:19] Yeah. Oh my god. I don’t know how we got on this topic, but it’s funny.

Nichole [02:44:22] It is funny.

Callie [02:44:22] It’s also time to go.

Nichole [02:44:24] Girl.

Callie [02:44:26] Cause I am runnin out of gas.

Nichole [02:44:28] How did we end up making a show where it’s- we might have to cut a segment, but that makes me sad.

Callie [02:44:33] I know.

Nichole [02:44:34] Well, we’ll figure it out.

Callie [02:44:38] All right. I don’t think we have plugged this yet, but we have-

Nichole [02:44:41] Ahhh! We did, I forgot the emails.

Callie [02:44:43] I know.

Nichole [02:44:44] I forgot to do it.

Callie [02:44:45] I know.

Nichole [02:44:45] It’ll take me a few episodes.

Callie [02:44:46] I was going to jump in, but then you had like moved on and I didn’t want to… Anyway.

Nichole [02:44:54] Yeah, fair.

Callie [02:44:54] So we have new ways to contact us.

Nichole [02:44:56] Yes.

Callie [02:44:56] In case you are with us from VWPA, or just new to the show and you want to reach out. So our new email address is contact@bitchyshitshow.com. And that is for all general enquiries.

Nichole [02:45:11] So profesh!

Callie [02:45:13] I know, right?

Nichole [02:45:14] We’re nailing it.

Callie [02:45:16] But because we are totes profesh, we now have other email addresses too for more specific emails. So we actually created a jokes@bitchyshitshow.com email address. Only Nichole has access to that email address.

Nichole [02:45:35] Yessss!

Callie [02:45:35] So you can send her jokes and I will not see them, though I am very sad to miss out on the just wildly intense subject lines of, CALLIE AVERT YOUR EYES, DON’T LOOK AT THIS EMAIL IT HAS A JOKE IN IT. So I will miss those, but now you can feel very safe in sending her jokes that she will then get to tell to me that I have not heard before. So, and then we also have if you want to send us an advice question for the show, you can e-mail ask@bitchyshitshow.com. So it’s contact@, ask@, and jokes@bitchyshitshow.com.

Nichole [02:46:12] Love it.

Callie [02:46:12] We are a new show, so again, we’re gonna have to start plugging again. If you like this episode and you like the show and the work we’re trying to do, you can rate and review us on whichever platform you are listening to this on. iTunes definitely helps the most.

Nichole [02:46:28] Yeah.

Callie [02:46:29] Get us on to that New and Noteworthy list.

Nichole [02:46:32] Yeah. Launch us out to the world.

Callie [02:46:34] So all the normies will be exposed to us and then realize they found themselves in a place they do not want to be.

Nichole [02:46:42] Yeah.

Callie [02:46:43] But yeah.

Nichole [02:46:44] Yeah. And I want to say a quick thank you to, first of all, we had people reviewing the show, I think before we even launched our first episode.

Callie [02:46:53] Yes, we did.

Nichole [02:46:54] Which again-

Callie [02:46:56] So sweet.

Nichole [02:46:56] Our listeners are just amazing.

Callie [02:46:57] Yeah.

Nichole [02:46:58] Just so sweet and amazing. But yeah, we saw we had quite a few, you know, relatively already, so thank you. Cause if anyone is a very long time listener or has gone through our backlog, you remember a very long timeframe where we were literally coming up with gimmicks to get people to review us. None of which we actually followed through on.

Callie [02:47:19] No, that’s also kind of our brand, so.

Nichole [02:47:21] Yes. But yeah, amazing now that we don’t have to beg quite so hard for reviews. And then I want to say we’re a bit behind, but there were a lot of Patreon- We switched our Patreon over to the new show name and kind of sent out a post, let everyone know that, you know. So if they wanted to, like, stop contributing that they had that option, you know, have consent. And I just want to say thank you to how many people, first of all, stayed with us, but also like how many people actually came on and contributed after we announced and sent out that post. We got people increasing their pledges and people coming on and being new pledges. So that just really means a lot.

Nichole [02:48:02] And just again, the general support. I think we’ve done a good job in creating a community here that practices the values of like anti-capitalism in the sense that, like you all have allowed us to grow and evolve over the years and like be able to chase what feels good and do what feels right. And that is really amazing because a lot of content creators get stuck in having to do the same thing even way after it stops feeling good. And then having to do kind of like inauthentic work to keep that coming. And I think part of it for us is that we don’t live off these donations, although we would desperately love to at least be able to pay ourselves out a bit of a salary. You know, whatever you think three hours of free content is worth, ringing the tip jar.

Nichole [02:48:53] But also, I think a big part of it is that like our listeners are great and just the fact that you’re all seem to generally just be along for whatever journey we’re going on, and just be with us in it is like really amazing. But also I think like an act of resistance. And that might sound like a stretch, but I don’t think that it is. Given how much people seem to think they own content creators and the content that they make, the fact that you all give us that freedom and that understanding and flexibility is actually pretty fucking radical.

Callie [02:49:22] Yeah.

Nichole [02:49:23] And I mean radical like cool, but also like resist. So to do a quick thank you, these are going back to mid-January. These are, they’re going to be Patreon, PayPal, an increased, like new and also increased donations. So thank you to Emily L, Jake W, Debbie M, James R, Kels, Annie K, Ben M. And then that was all for VWPA. Let me see what I got for the Bitchy Shit Show. I actually e-mailed someone from Bernie’s campaign the other day. I got a connects from a friend. And it was the first time that I had to be like, Hi, I’m from the Bitchy Shit Show podcast.

Callie [02:50:15] Oh my god.

Nichole [02:50:18] And you’re like a working professional person on a political campaign.

Callie [02:50:22] Yeah.

Nichole [02:50:23] I want to interview someone on your staff to be on our Big Tent Energy segment. And I was like hopefully they find this delightful.

Callie [02:50:33] Yeah.

Nichole [02:50:35] But yeah. It wasn’t quite like embarrassment over the show, but just the first time that I was like, OK, we’re gonna hit some angles where this is a little awkward. It was fun. All right. So specifically under Bitchy Shit Show, we have Debbie G, Emily D, Ashley, Christine B, Cara L, and Aaron P.

Callie [02:50:58] All right!

Nichole [02:50:59] Yeah.

Callie [02:51:00] Oh my god, thank you so much, everyone!

Nichole [02:51:02] No, it really was like a kind of outpouring of support. And again, that’s for a few weeks so it’s a little backed up. But like yeah, it just was, I just have to say we felt very validated like via all avenues that this was a good move for us. And that, like, y’all are just really fucking cool with like us doing what we want and need to do. And I think that’s how, like we’ve done this for five years. It’s still like doesn’t, it blows my mind because it doesn’t feel like it’s been that long at all.

Callie [02:51:33] But also it feels like an eternity.

Nichole [02:51:38] I knew your face immediately went like dark. I was like, okay, maybe just for me.

Callie [02:51:43] No, no. I mean, in some ways it does, you know.

Nichole [02:51:45] I know.

Callie [02:51:46] It’s somehow both. In a great way.

Nichole [02:51:49] I know, I agree. But like this is how we’re able to have this much energy and enthusiasm and like still keep talking about stuff this much later and not really be retreading any old ground. I mean we come back to common topics a lot or common concepts a lot, but like we really constantly feel like fresh and new and we just have these topic lists like idea list’s that are like endless and we’re always adding to them. And like that is because we’ve been able to morph and grow and evolve. And I think that that is something we all should be really proud of. I think that that’s very cool. Because I have seen other content creators don’t really have that space and it makes me very sad for them. It’s really hard.

Callie [02:52:30] Or they try something new and then they just get like so much backlash for it.

Nichole [02:52:34] Yeah. Exactly. And yeah, and that’s really kind of like a form of violence, in my view. You know, like you’re basically saying you can only subsist if you do what I want you to do. And keeping people in certain spaces. And I just, like forever grateful that we’re able to do what we want to do.

Callie [02:52:51] Yeah.

Nichole [02:52:52] Yeah.

Callie [02:52:53] All right y’all. Well, we will talk to you next week.

Nichole [02:52:57] Buh-bye.

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