COVID19 & Mask Information from a Nurse
Question: How are surgical masks suppose to protect the public from COVID19, but are not considered protective against COVID19 to the individual wearing the mask?
TYPES OF PRECAUTIONS: Before diving in to an explanation, I’m going to present the basic infection control protocol that all health care organizations adhere to. There are different categories we have that helps us categorize the disease types with how they infect individuals, and the types of protective equipment recommended—these are the main ones:
- Universal Precautions- also known as “standard precautions”; every patient is considered this— PPE used for this are standard gloves, and hand hygiene before and after contact with the patient.
- Contact precautions- PPE used for this are gloves and a protective gown as the pathogen is spread by skin to skin contact. The gown protects us because it is put on over our scrubs, and is removed after patient care. An example of this would be MRSA bacteria in a patient’s wound, or shingles lesions which are scabbed over.
- Droplet precautions- PPE used for droplet precautions are gloves, a basic (surgical) mask, and (depending on disease) eye protection. This prevents large droplets from coughs and sneezes from directly entering our mouths and nose. Droplets are considered to be in the air temporarily but the weight from the droplet is too heavy to be aerosolized, so it falls towards the ground. Some diseases include influenza (flu viruses) and rhino viruses (common cold). Doors to these rooms are to remain closed.
- Airborne Precautions- With this type, pathogens are in the air around the patient for an extended amount of time. They are placed in a special “negative pressure room”— where air is pulled out of their rooms continuously and diverted through filtration systems in the vents—then to outside. PPE includes gloves, a gown, hair cover, and a type of respirator—- N95 is the most basic, but we also use air purifying respirators that look like a space helmet and have a filtration component; they are battery powered. N95’s are sized for us upon hiring to ensure the size we wear is securely sealed around our mouths and nose. Diseases on this precaution include chicken pox, meningitis, tuberculosis, open sore shingles, and COVID19.
- Neutropenia Precautions/ sterile bedside Procedures- used when a patient has very low white blood cells or we are preforming a sterile procedure at bedside— for this, it’s usually our cancer patients and is intermittently used with certain sterile bedside procedures to protect the patient. If it’s a sterile procedure, the patient and I both have a new surgical mask on and I have sterile gloves on. If it’s a cancer patient, I wear a mask because I’m protecting them from me.
WHAT ARE N95s AND SURGICAL MASKS MADE OF: Both N95s and surgical masks are made with “melt blown fabric”— a process in which different polymers are melted down and blown at high speeds to create a randomized “webbing” pattern. Surgical masks typically have two to three layers of this with a hydrophobic—water repelling—outer layer, while N95s have melt blown fabric layers, activated cotton layers, an activated carbon layer, and a hydrophobic outside layer. Basically, the “activated” layers are electronically charged to help “catch” super tiny charged particles and bacteria and viruses. The randomized webbing of the melt-blown fabric helps create inconsistent “holes” in the various layers. In contrast, a homemade mask out of cotton, would have a woven pattern with consistent predictable gaps even upon layering the cotton.
HOW MASKS SLOW COVID19: wearing a mask out in public is super important in helping to REDUCE the amount of virus particles you spread when you cough, sneeze, and breath. Especially with coughing and sneezing, virus particles are coming out of your body at HIGH SPEEDS going in a single direction. The surgical masks help act as a barrier to slow down your coughs and sneezes, catching SOME of the virus particles in the melt blown fabric web. Viruses have still been shown to penetrate surgical masks, but it still reduces the length it can travel if any pass through your mask. Think of it like a gun shooting a bullet in the air versus shooting a bullet through maple syrup. It would slow it down because there’s increased force pushing back and slowing the speed. A surgical mask, and even more so, a homemade mask, isn’t going to be 100% but it will help trap/ slow down some of the virus particles coming out of your body.
WHY MASKS ARE NOT CONSIDERED HELPFUL WITH PROTECTION FROM COVID19: There are a lot of other countries that identify COVID19 as being an Airborne Precaution— the US… has gone back and forth with it being droplet or airborne. Will a surgical mask help protect you if someone coughs or sneezes on you? For the most part, it should. Will it protect you if someone infected was hanging out in a small store and you enter a couple hours later in the same space? Probably not. Because your mask is not form sealed to your face, air is passing through the sides. If the virus has spread out in the surrounding air— it can easily pass through the sides of your mask/ open areas of your mask and into your mouth and nose. Will wearing a mask protect you more than no mask? Yeah.. but we can’t say if it will for sure…and as far as Homemade masks in general…I don’t know if they really help reduce the spread let alone protect…I guess it can’t hurt to wear them… I would have to think some sort of barrier is better than nothing.
FALSE INFO TOLD TO THE PUBLIC: There is a lot of false information being spread to everyone by the CDC and the government in general. Healthcare workers ARE PISSED at the CDC right now and we’re basically having our mouths clamped shut by our healthcare organizations and government. We can loose our jobs, and more importantly our licenses to practice by stating certain information. We have multiple groups on social media that are private nurse only/ health workers only groups where we basically get to talk to each other about what’s REALLY happening at different hospitals and trying to organize to advocate for ourselves and the public. There’s a lot of nurses wanting the head of the CDC to be removed after we get through this. The CDC is telling all of us that COVID19 is basically droplet, and airborne only with certain procedures— this is not a fact and probably false. There is not a 100% factual answer as to how long it remains airborne and studies out have most likely not been peer reviewed and show different results. In cases like this, it should be treated as airborne— until we have more evidence of it not being airborne (which studies that HAVE been done mostly suggesting it is airborne). We don’t have enough negative pressure rooms and enough equipment to treat all the COVID19 patients as “airborne”— so we constantly are battling our administration who keeps touting on about the CDC guidelines, but disregards the WHO guidelines and other research disputing CDC guidelines.
The public is being told to distance themselves, and was originally told not to wear masks, despite all of us knowing it would help reduce the spread of the disease. They told you this because hospitals didn’t have enough masks, and they wanted people to save masks for us. We also were having visitors steal our supplies (many hospitals were having this issue), so that’s also why the public was told not to wear masks. You are now being told to wear homemade masks— they won’t really work. They probably don’t really slow the spread, but this is just me speculating based on the differences of material used with cotton masks vs. surgical masks. You are also not being told that this can spread through contact because the virus is present in stool. You are also not being told about the virus causing sudden cardiac death in people who are not “sick” enough to be admitted to the hospital. Yes. 19 year olds, 50 year olds— no prior cardiac history, are dropping dead suddenly because the virus attacks and damages heart muscle. You are not being told that all of us that work in the hospitals are working and rotating on COVID19 units— that we still are being forced to show up to work even if we test positive— we are still working with you. If I’m not running a temp above 101 F and don’t have shortness of breath, but test positive, guess what? I’m your nurse today, Mr. Sick Cancer Patient. I can’t refuse an assignment because that’s patient abandonment and every other nurse here has COVID19 too but half of us aren’t tested because it might mean we would need time off! We only get tested once we’re short of breath or running high fevers or fainting during our shifts. Oh! And the test most of use are using currently has a 60-70% accuracy so who the fuck really knows if we actually have it and are getting false negatives!
Most importantly, no one is being told about the huge range of symptoms being seen with COVID19. The CDC says “shortness of breath, cough, and fever”. Here’s what we’re actually seeing in positive patients besides those 3 symptoms: elevated heart rates, chest pain and mimicking of heart attack symptoms, diarrhea, nausea, extreme fatigue, headaches, muscle and joint pain, loss of smell, loss of taste, dizziness, and confusion. People are having a range of different symptoms and not everyone is getting a fever or shortness of breath. Just about everyone has a dry cough and fatigue.
What do you call a deer who REALLY likes pickles?
Resources Related to Our Vote Blue No Matter Who Bitch Session
- Rating Donald Trump: At least he’s not George W. Bush (The Hill)
- I Grew up in Iraq. Joe Biden Helped Destroy It. (Medium)
- Voting is Not Harm Reduction (Indigenous Action)
- Why I Won’t Vote by W.E.B. Dubois (Hartford Web Publishing)
- Landlords Are Bad Everybody by Thought Slime (YouTube)
- Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens (Princeton)
- 20 Years of Data Reveals that Congress Doesn’t Care What You Think (Upworthy) – explains/summarizes above Princeton study
- The Times Took 19 Days to Report an Accusation Against Biden. Here’s Why. (NY Times)
- Virginia lawmakers vote to delay minimum wage hike, teacher raises due to pandemic (WJLA)
- The Supreme Court’s Enduring Bias (The Atlantic)
- Ruth Bader Ginsburg: Colin Kaepernick’s protest is ‘dumb and disrespectful’ (The Guardian)
- Trump’s Move to Suspend Enforcement of Environmental Laws is a Lifeline to the Oil Industry (Inside Climate News)
- After a decade out in the cold, 2020 is shaping up to be the year of the pipeline (Financial Post) – this article is gross, don’t give them the clicks, but the title says everything
- Big Oil is using the coronavirus pandemic to push through the Keystone XL pipeline (The Guardian)
SUPPORT THE SHOW
Nichole [00:00:26] Hey, everyone. I’m Nichole.
Callie [00:00:28] And I’m Callie.
Nichole [00:00:30] And today we’ll be bitching about.
Callie [00:00:37] (bursts into laughter)
Nichole [00:00:37] I finally remembered to do it again.
Nichole [00:00:41] And only because I was transcribing our first episode and I was like, whaaat!?
Callie [00:00:48] I love how we made such a big fucking show, too, of like, oh my god, we have this perfect lead in and we’re laughing about how we didn’t use the one that we should have used for VWPA. And then we just immediately forgot again.
Callie [00:01:02] It’s very on brand for us (laughing).
Callie [00:01:08] But yes, today we’ll be bitching about voting for Biden. In the simplest of terms, that’s basically what this whole fucking episode’s gonna keep leading back to.
Nichole [00:01:20] Yeah, so libs get ready to be fucking pissed.
Nichole [00:01:25] You’ve been fighting with me for two weeks now on social media.
Nichole [00:01:32] Yes.
Nichole [00:01:33] But first I have one little news item and then I’m going to…
Nichole [00:01:38] We had a few people follow up with us if we had heard back from anyone about masks and COVID protection and we actually did. So I wanted to read that person’s post because it has a ton of really good information in it.
Nichole [00:01:53] So my news item this week.
Nichole [00:01:54] I’m not even going to go too deep into it, but I just found out that banks can steal your relief money. So banks have been authorized if you owe them money that when your relief check comes into your account, they can actually take those funds and use it to pay off, you know, any fees or overdue loans or anything like that that you might have outstanding.
Nichole [00:02:19] So there have been people already who have had money come in that the bank just took from them and so just all to say the banks are the fucking worst and they need to be dismantled and destroyed.
Callie [00:02:36] Yet these same banks that fucked everyone over and caused the 2008 financial crisis and then were bailed out with our money and got even bigger because we had to bail them out because we were told they were too big to fail and they just use that money to continue fucking over their customers and buying up smaller banks.
Callie [00:03:00] And yeah, they’re just already already doing this evil shit, so. I was so fucking infuriated when I saw this story. Apparently there was some public pressure in particular on USAA, which, if you’re not familiar, is a bank specifically for people who served in the military. In the U.S., you have to like have served or have like an immediate family member who did. And there was so much like outcry that they were one of the banks that was doing this that I think they actually reversed course and put some plans in place that they wouldn’t be basically snatching at these direct deposits. But, yeah, I mean, this is this is a fucking joke like this twelve hundred dollars was already such a laughable amount of money to get us through. I mean, you have Steve Mnuchin who’s talking about how like this twelve hundred dollars.
Callie [00:04:02] Like what? It could stretch like, what, 10 weeks? He’s saying on like national news. He really thinks twelve hundred dollars can stretch for the average American for ten fucking weeks!
Callie [00:04:15] And then you have like, you know, we haven’t suspended rents. We haven’t suspended mortgages. In most cases, we haven’t suspended like utility payments and credit card payments even. I mean, there’s so many things.
Callie [00:04:29] And so this $1,200 is immediately going to be snapped up by bills. And if it wasn’t, then guess what? Your bank could take it if you were already like in a financial financial hole. It’s just I mean, how much more is it going to take for people to see that, like they don’t give a fuck about you and they will they literally do not care. They will be robbing your fucking corpse to get their money like they do not care.
Nichole [00:04:57] Yeah. Yeah! Just how many like this is you, it’s your family.
Nichole [00:05:05] It’s food and safety and security. Like right out of your hands in your mouth, right? And yeah, I just don’t know when it’s gonna finally the dam is finally going to break.
Nichole [00:05:16] This is disgusting.
Nichole [00:05:17] And this is after, you know, banks like Bank of America were not allowing people to apply for small business loans if they didn’t already have a loan or debt with the bank because the bank wanted them to get money so that they could then take to pay towards their loans. They didn’t want to help facilitate people getting money to keep their business open. It’s fucking disgusting.
Callie [00:05:43] This this whole issue with the small business loans. I’m not super well-versed in it, but the reporting I have been hearing about in particular on the Hill on Rising, it’s it just.
Callie [00:05:58] It was so much less than what we needed. It has not gone nearly far enough. It’s like about money, like people can’t get even. People can’t even get through to apply for it. And the banks just had so much power in deciding, like you were just saying, who they would even allow to apply for the loan or not. And they were also like reserving funds for some of their like, bigger clients so that the smaller businesses like by the time they were able to even get through to their own fucking bank, the funds were gone. Yeah, it’s disgusting.
Nichole [00:06:38] It’s disgusting.
Callie [00:06:40] Yeah. So fuck the banks.
Nichole [00:06:42] Fuck the banks!
Callie [00:06:43] Yeah. I’ll just do my little plug like I usually do whenever we talk shit about the banks. But it really is best to bank with a credit union if you can. They… I mean I’ve worked for both. And to be honest, like credit unions can still be pretty bank-like. I mean they’re still a business. They’re supposed to not necessarily be for profit. They’re not nonprofit, but they’re supposed to be not for profit, which makes them marginally better. It’s not I… I caution you not to get your hopes up too high (laughs) because it’s still a business. But yeah, really research like credit unions in your area. A lot of times they’re all there will be formed based on either location or by special interests like their credit unions that are set up just for teachers or set up just for certain unions. And at least the money that is going to those financial institutions in credit unions is supposed to be for the betterment of the people who bank there. You know, you’re you’re part of it. You’re supposed to have a say in how it’s run. So it’s not a great option, but it’s certainly much better than the big banks. And, you know, we we need to do better, too. So this isn’t to shame anyone who’s been banking with a big bank, but really look into your options because nowadays with. Online banking and all the banking services that there are available, you really don’t have to worry about the size as much as you used to. You know, if you’re part of a credit union, you can usually bank at any other credit union’s ATMs which means that you’re not worried about like if you travel outside of your area, you won’t have access to sell.
Nichole [00:08:32] Yeah, I need to get on that. I’m guilty. And it would be especially great right now because I have my 401K money in my account, so it would be like a huge fuck you. They actually just offered me a premier account. And I was like, yes because then when I move my money, I’m like moving it out of a premier account and I can be like, fuck you!
Callie [00:08:55] Yeah. Yeah.
Nichole [00:08:57] As we always say, a big part of that, too, if you do end up moving your money out is like find a way to tell the bank why, you know, make sure that because these banks, too, I mean, they support pipelines. They’re in bed with all kinds of destructive industries and supporting all kinds of horrible racist things. So make sure that like you make a case for the fact that you’re moving your money out because, you know, either how they’ve handled things during this pandemic or any other political issue that might concern you. It’s really important that they understand that, people are pulling their money out as a result of these things. Not that I give a shit because I’m not here to like try to reform banks, but it’s still, you know, it’s a good thing to do to just let them know that public opinion is changing and that it’s going to cost them.
Callie [00:09:48] And it has created movements in the past. I mean, there was a Jane Fonda, right? It was leading some or at least was very vocally and supportive of I don’t know that she was leaving it. But when they were pulling funds out of I think in particular like Wells Fargo because of its support of like pipelines and stuff. So there has been a lot of public pressure about pulling your money out of these institutions to send a message to them that you don’t support you support them or where they’re investing their funds. So it’s definitely not a bad thing. But I also, like, don’t yell at the teller or the bank clerk. Like they’re obviously not investing in pipelines.
Callie [00:10:31] They’re just there to get their fucking paychecks. They just let them know why you’re leaving. Don’t go all Karen on some poor worker who’s being forced to work during a pandemic.
Nichole [00:10:46] And I think it was Bank of America, too, was the one that pushed for… What was it, mortgage forgiveness? They wanted to do 90 days freeze or whatever. And Bank of America pushed for only 30 days.
Callie [00:11:00] Yeah. Gavin Newsom (CA governor). He got into agreement with a bunch of the big banks for the people in the state of California. And yeah, the other banks agreed to 90 days and Bank of America was like, umm, 30.
Nichole [00:11:14] Fucking monsters.
Callie [00:11:16] Bank of America’s particularly bad, like.
Nichole [00:11:19] I just I love how Gavin Newsom keeps like threatening that we’re a nation state. And I’m like, I wish you meant that as aggressively and progressively as I would mean it, but I am still living for it.
Nichole [00:11:35] Cause California is a force like it’s like a global force. So for our governor to be like we’re ceding from this whole situation, we’re going to take our enormous GDC and do our own thing. I’m like, yes, do it!
Nichole [00:11:56] Yeah. He’s been really pissed. I mean, I’m sure a lot of it is just like fake. I dont I dont know as much about him as I should, but I’m sure a lot of it’s just like Dem masquerading stuff. But he’s just been like we can’t get progressive things passed here. We can’t get the care that we need.
Nichole [00:12:13] Like basically the government’s in our way, like we have money, we just want to do our own thing. And I’m like, DO IT!
Nichole [00:12:26] All right, so as promised, this person asked to remain anonymous because they’re actually giving us a bit of inside information about COVID and protective equipment.
Nichole [00:12:40] So this is a little long, but I think the information is extremely… Extremely… I want to say powerful, and that’s not quite the word I’m looking for, but it’s just really good information that I think everyone should know. And it’s some stuff that, you know, nurses and other medical workers are being told to not to not give out people.
Nichole [00:13:03] So question, as a reminder, how are surgical masks supposed to protect the public from COVID19 but are not considered protective against COVID19 to the individual wearing the mask? If you remember, I think I asked that two episodes ago.
Nichole [00:13:19] So the first section is types of precautions: “Before diving into an explanation. I’m going to present the basic infection control protocol that all health care organizations adhere to. There are different categories that we have that help us categorize the disease types with how they infect the individuals and the types of protective equipment recommended. These are the main ones.
Nichole [00:13:45] Number one, universal precautions. Also known as standard precautions. Every patient is considered this PPE. And again, that’s protective equipment used for this are standard gloves and hand hygiene before and after contact with the patient. So that’s universally across the board when you’re dealing with the patient. Those are the precautions you take.
Nichole [00:14:08] (Number 2) Contact precautions PPE used for this are gloves and a protective gown as the pathogen is spread by skin to skin contact. The gown protects us because it’s put on over scrubs and is removed after patient care. An example of this would be a mersa bacteria in a patient’s wound or shingles legions which are scabbed over.
Nichole [00:14:31] Number three is droplet precautions, PPE used for droplet precautions or gloves, a basic, in parentheses, a surgical mask, and depending on the disease, eye protection. This prevents large droplets, droplets from coughs and sneezes from directly entering our mouths and nose droplets are considered to be in the air temporarily, but the weight from the droplet is too heavy to be aerosolized, so it falls towards the ground. Some diseases include influenza, flu viruses and rhinoviruses (common cold). Doors to these rooms are to remain closed.
Nichole [00:15:11] Number four is airborne precautions with this type. Pathogens are in the air around the patient for an extended amount of time. They are placed in a special negative pressure room where air is pulled out of their rooms continuously and diverted through filtration systems in the vents, then to the outside. PPE includes gloves, a gown, hair cover and a type of respirator. N95 is the most basic. But we also use air purifying respirators that look like a space helmet and have a filtration component. They are battery powered. N95s are sized for us upon hiring to ensure the mask we wear securely sealed around our mouths and nose diseases on this precaution include chicken pox, meningitis, tuberculosis, opensource shingles and COVID19.
Nichole [00:16:02] Five is neutropenia precautions slash sterile bedside procedures. These are used when a patient has very low white blood cells or we are performing a sterile procedure at bedside. For this, it’s usually our cancer patients and is intermittently used with certain sterile bedside procedures to protect the patient. If it’s a sterile procedure, the patient and I both have a surgical mask on and I have sterile gloves on. If it’s a cancer patient, I wear a mask because I’m protecting them from me.
Nichole [00:16:36] So what are N95s and surgical masks made of? Both N95 and surgical masks are made with melt blown fabric, a process in which different polymers are melted down and blown at high speeds to create a randomized webbing pattern. Surgical masks typically have two to three layers of this with a hydrophobic, or water-repelling outer layer, while N95s have melt blown fabric layers, activated cotton layers and activated carbon layer and a hydrophobic outside layer. Basically that activated layers are electronically charged to help catch super tiny particles of bacteria and viruses or, and bacteria and viruses. The randomize webbing of the metal and fabric helps create inconsistant holes in the various layers. In contrast, a homemade mask made of cotton would have a woven pattern with a consistent, predictable gaps even upon layering the cotton.
Nichole [00:17:37] So now for the big question – how do masks slow COVID? Wearing a mask out in public is super important in helping to reduce the amount of virus particles that you spread when you cough, sneeze and breathe. Especially with coughing and sneezing the virus particles are coming out of your body at high speeds, going in a single direction. The surgical mask helps to act as a barrier to slow down your coughs and sneezes, catching some of the virus particles in the meltblown fabric web. Viruses still have been shown to penetrate surgical masks. But it still reduces the length it can travel, if any, pass through your mask. So think of it like a gun shooting a bullet in the air versus shooting a bullet through maple syrup. It would slow it down because there’s increased force pushing back and slowing the speed. A surgical mask, and even more so a homemade mask, isn’t going to be 100 percent, but it will help trap and slow down some of the virus particles coming out of your body.
Nichole [00:18:41] So why masks are not considered helpful with protection from COVID19? There’s a lot of other countries that identify COVID19 as being an airborne precaution. With the U.S. we’ve gone back and forth with it being droplet or airborne.
Nichole [00:18:55] Will a surgical masks protect you if someone coughs or sneezes on you? For the most part, it should. Will it protect you if someone infected was hanging out in a small store and you enter a couple hours later in the same space? Probably not. Because your mask is not form sealed to your face air is passing through the sides. If the virus is spread out in the surrounding air, it can easily pass through the sides of your mask or open areas of your mask and into your mouth and nose. Will wearing a mask protect you more than no mask? Yeah, but we can’t say if it will for sure. And as far as homemade masks in general, I don’t know if they really help reduce the spread, let alone protect. I guess it can’t hurt to wear them. I would have to think that some sort of barrier is better than nothing.”
Nichole [00:19:42] So the next section is false information told to the public: “There’s a lot of false information being spread to everyone by the CDC and the government in general, health care workers are pissed at the CDC right now and we’re basically having our mouths clamped shut by our health care organizations and government. We can lose our jobs and more importantly, our licenses to practice by stating certain information. We have multiple groups on social media that are private nurse only or health health worker only groups where we basically get to talk to each other about what’s really happening in different hospitals and trying to organize to advocate for ourselves and the public. There’s a lot of nurses wanting the head of the CDC to be removed after we get through with this. The CDC is telling all of us that COVID19 is basically droplet, and airborne only with certain procedures. That is not a fact and is probably false. There is not 100 percent factual answer to how long it remains airborne and studies out there have most likely not been peer reviewed and show different results. In cases like this it should be treated as airborne until we have more evidence of it not being airborne. Which studies that have been done are mostly suggesting that it is airborne. We dont have enough negative pressure rooms and enough equipment to treat all the COVID19 patients as airborne. So we’re constantly battling our administration who keeps touting on about the CDC guidelines but disregards the WHO guidelines, the World Health Organization guidelines, and other research disputing the CDC guidelines. The public is being told to distance themselves and was originally told not to wear masks, despite all of us knowing it would help reduce the spread of the disease.”
Nichole [00:21:24] And, this is Nicole talking now, this was a big reason why I asked that question in the first place, because I couldn’t understand why we had been told in the US to not wear masks for so long. And people were saying that not only did they not help, but there is almost this insinuation that they made it worse somehow.
Nichole [00:21:43] So there is a lot of like not just directing us to something that was inaccurate, but almost fear mongering around it. And I’ve been reading that there… A lot of this was coming out of late. xenophobia, because it is such a shame here it’s considered like an Asian thing. Right? And we’ve been fear mongering and being really racist and xenophobic about China. So it’s seen as like “not American” to go around wearing a mask, which is pure insanity.
Nichole [00:22:16] But they were saying that was especially from like the Trump administration and like Republicans, that was a big reason why. Beyond the fact that supposedly they are trying to keep the masks for health care workers. But I don’t really buy that. I don’t think that that was really the main motivating force for them to tell us not to wear them. I think a lot of it was like them, wanting us to not think it was that bad, because for us to wear masks here, it’s like, oh, fuck! Right? Because we heard so many reports of people trying to wear masks at work and their bosses are like, you’re gonna scare the customers, take it off. Because here it’s like this just not something that we do. It’s not culturally acceptable to wear a mask. And I think a big part of it was to keep it from seeming like this was actually a really big deal.
Callie [00:23:04] Yeah, yeah. I think you’re right. I think a lot of it is. I mean, we’ve seen our government do that every step of the way. Right. It’s like this. It’s this immediate reaction of like we have to be as focused, if not more focused on keeping people calm than we are like treating the problem, whatever the problem is like, that’s that’s why they dumped so much money into the stock market, because once the stock market goes, you know, then it’s like that freaks people out even more. It’s like just… It’s this constant pressure to like keep panic down, which doesn’t really… I mean, I get how important it is to like keep everyone from panicking where we’re a country of like over 300 million people. Like if everyone were to just like fucking panic like that would be very dangerous. But at the same time, like trying to keep panic low shouldn’t impede actually treating the problem.
Callie [00:24:03] And I think you’re right. I think the mass are like cause even me like when I go out to grocery shop. It’s like it’s fuckin scary. You know, it’s like a constant reminder. You know, it’s you’re in your home. And, you know, if you’re lucky enough to be able to, like stay at home and I have to be going out to work, you know, things are going on, obviously. But, you know, you kind of get lulled into this and then you go outside here like, fuck, the world is different now. Like all grocery stores have painted, or at least near us, have painted like spots on the ground of where you have to stand in line just to get in the store, like they’re doing social distancing and everyone’s wearing masks and everything’s being wiped down, it’s just like a really strong visual reminder of like how serious the soul is. And I think they wanted to prevent that as long as possible, which unfortunately makes it way fucking worse, you know?
Nichole [00:24:58] Yeah. Yeah. Any and I mean, I do legitimately also believe that a lot of people in our presidential administration, like did not believe that this was really a thing. I think some did. But I think all like I believe that Trump, like, didn’t believe it. You know? Or didn’t like take it seriously and think… That exactly if we could just maintain this sense of normalcy and keep people from taking it seriously was just going to blow over and it would be fine. and then it was like, oh shit, this is a horrible thing. And then that’s when you saw him changing the rhetoric around. Oh, yeah. We can’t open this quickly and like, whatever. But even already, in the United States, we’re having a bunch of protests of people who want to reopen the country, so these people are gathering without masks or anything and (are) outside protesting because they think this whole thing is made up and they’re being funded by Devos? They’re being funded by like right wing money.
Callie [00:26:09] Yeah, the DeVos family.
Nichole [00:26:11] DeVos. Yeah. Just like the Tea Party was funded by the Koch brothers. So and then Trump is out on Twitter cheering them on and encouraging them (heavy sigh). So now it’s like I don’t know if he’s specifically or they are really not taking this seriously because they’re so anti-science that they just actually don’t think it’s that bad or if they… I also know that they just don’t care.
Nichole [00:26:43] So I don’t know if it’s just that they don’t care or if it’s they don’t care and also they don’t think it’s that big of a deal. And it’s one of those unfortunate things where the shutdown has really helped. You know, we’ve still had a lot of deaths and we’re going to have a lot more. But it has been pretty effective and so you have people who because we don’t have like millions of deaths right now are like this is all fake and it’s like, no. It’s not fake. It’s just what we’re doing is working. So maybe we should keep doing it and make sure that we’re all safe.
Callie [00:27:20] That’s what always happens, right? They try to like warn us. And we if we actually do take it seriously, then people are like, oh, see, you lie to us. This wasn’t that big of a deal. And it’s like, no. It just it worked. Like, there’s this gaslighting that’s gonna happen, you know, after the fact of like, oh, it see, it wasn’t that bad. It’s like how people talk about the Ebola crisis. They’re like, see? They panic just about. And like, don’t get me wrong, the media definitely did fear monger the Ebola virus a lot because they love a fucking crisis, especially if it’s not here, because then they get to like add into that American superiority of like “look at these countries” that is so fucking gross and xenophobic. But it’s like a big reason why that didn’t become a much bigger problem is because it was like taken seriously.
Callie [00:28:16] And so now people use that as some sort of fucked up evidence of like, see, the media is always just panicking and trying to make a scared and it’s like, no, you fucking dummies like, it worked!
Nichole [00:28:26] Like we yeah, like we did it. And not even that great. Like it could have been not even as bad as it is now. But at least, you know, we kept it from getting as bad as it could be and now you’ll just think it’s not real. I just can’t. I really just can’t with people. My fave Hbomberguy… I don’t know if he tweeted this or if he retweeted someone else’s, but I saw on his Twitter he was saying this whole thing is like… People being like, you’re gonna starve if you don’t eat food and then you eat food and you don’t starve, so you’re like, well, I don’t need to eat. Humans don’t starve without food! You know, I mean, he’s like. The thing you’re doing is the thing that’s preventing the bad thing. And then you think you don’t need to do the thing anymore. It doesn’t make any sense!
Nichole [00:29:25] And I was like, yes, exactly. Yeah.
Nichole [00:29:28] And it just… We talked about… We just had our book club meeting a couple hours ago and we talked about this a lot in there. Just this idea of like we don’t really understand what the long term plan is, because if you do open the country back up and we’ve talked about this on the show before, but people are gonna get sick, the economy’s still going to tank. I honestly… So just money wise, it doesn’t seem like it’s actually going to help anything. But I think it’s a perception. And I think for them, a big part of it is that if the economy’s back open, then it can go back to being your own fault if something happens to you versus the pressure right now, right? For them to come out with more relief.
Callie [00:30:13] Yeah, I agree.
Nichole [00:30:13] So I don’t think it’s like our economy is not going to be strong. You know, it is still gonna be a fucking nightmare. But the government will have less focus on it as needing to step up and take care of us versus like it going back to be this individualistic problem of like, you got sick so it’s your problem versus right now where it’s like we’re shut down in a pandemic and the government needs to step in and do something about it.
Callie [00:30:40] Yeah, I think that’s a very astute perception of things.
Callie [00:30:44] And I think it’s also partially that we’ve just… The media is such liars like all of them, you know, on all sides, like it’s all just such propaganda that people are just so sick of being torn one way or the other and and being confused. And we’ve had like, I mean, prepping for decades of this, like confusing information and not being able to trust sources and being so entrenched in your own side that people don’t really know what to do and we’re not a very strong… We don’t have very strong mental health awareness in this country. And so people don’t really know how to process fear. You know, they just keep falling back on… Into their camps. And you have the group that’s like protesting to reopen because honestly, it’s probably just easier for them instead of just dealing with conflicted feelings of like this is scary and I’m stuck at home and I don’t know what to do. And I’m struggling to get the food and groceries that I need and I can’t pay my bills and I don’t see the government stepping in. It’s just easier for them to be like to add into their stuff that they’ve been spoon fed on that, in their camp, right, of like, fuck the government reopen, you’re trying to take away my rights!
Callie [00:32:05] And then you have the liberal camp, which is supposed to like wholly trust our neoliberal institutions. And they’re like, look at all these people that don’t believe the media! And that are, you know, the the World Health Organization are saviors! And listen to the CDC! And it’s like there’s… It’s not all black and white. I mean, I was even surprised, I was listening to Rising and they talked about how liberals right now are fucking furious at Trump for like cutting off funding to the World Health Organization. And they were actually talking about it and I was like the World Health Organization did what!?
Callie [00:32:45] I mean, they actually handled this really poorly and did some really shady shit, including discouraging travel bans, which. Like, makes no fucking sense. If you have a pandemic breaking out, travel bans are actually a good thing. Not if you go about them in a xenophobic way, but in a way of like we need to slow the spread. So they just they did things that were really unethical. But liberals don’t hear that side. They just here look at Trump de-funding this like essential heroic organization that’s helping us.
Callie [00:33:22] It’s it’s all just a mess right now. And since we’re not taught to like deal in nuance or deal with conflicted feelings, you just have everyone shouting and no one listening. So, I’m not surprised that you have one group like stay at home and then you have the other group like protesting to reopen things. You know?
Nichole [00:33:45] Yeah, and I watched, you know that rising as well, and they were talking about Heather’s evidence coming out that the WHO, World Health Organization, helped to cover up that China kept this outbreak from the rest of the world for like six very crucial days.
Nichole [00:34:05] And also that there’s some evidence coming out that this was made came from a lab, which my conspiracy brain is like thank you! Called it!
Callie [00:34:18] Yeah (laughing) you should have seen Nichole like so fucking proud of herself messaging me being like I fucking knew it! I knew it!
Nichole [00:34:30] And how they have been like sitting on that evidence. So, yeah. The World Health Organization’s being shady as fuck. And and where this shows I think more than anything with this really shows and demonstrates is that we have to like tear this all down because we are literally… Every single person who has any kind of authority or anybody that we’re leaning on is biased and not giving us the full picture. Right? So you have like Trump, who’s cutting funding to the World Health Organization during a pandemic, which is nuts. But then you have the Dems hiding the fact that the World Health Organization did some really fucking shady shit and we’re like discovering like more to be discovered, you know, this is just the initial reporting people have been able to get out. And nobody’s operating in our best interests.
Callie [00:35:23] Yeah.
Nichole [00:35:24] You know, like there’s no good answer here. Nobody here is operating in good faith.
Nichole [00:35:30] So, yeah, it just highlights the fact that like the Dems are just as bad as the Republicans in the whole thing is just corrupt. It’s all rotten.
Nichole [00:35:40] Even these other, like the World Health Organization’s fucking corrupt. How can you be corruptor when your whole thing is like keep people healthy? (scoffs)
Callie [00:35:51] Well, we’ve just gotta, like, break through these like rigid camps. We have to. I mean, there’s this superiority complex that each side has, that the other side is just full of lies and they’re just being sheep that are being led blindly. It’s like we ALL are! We all are.
Callie [00:36:13] You know? It’s why you know, I know we’ve mentioned them a lot, but I I really do strongly recommend that if you don’t already listen to and follow Rising on The Hill, it’s on it.. It’s YouTube, it’s free. They posts like their show every morning because you have both sides. You have someone on the left and you have someone on the right. And they’re both populist. So they’re both very like anti the system and anti-establishment. And they don’t always disagree and or excuse me, they don’t always agree on things. But you learn a lot in they’re back and forth and you hear things that like you will not hear anywhere else.
Nichole [00:36:53] Yeah, I see some people shitting on them online sometimes because… Just for a million reasons, right? Like some people are like, I don’t trust crystal ball because she works with Saagar who’s a right wing… And it’s like or like sometimes she’s slightly not really establishment, but, you know, she’s not like a complete radical. But I’m like, listen. For nothing else… Is I agree with you, there’s no other right now that I found yet, there is no other show like news show that I can tune in to every day and hear the kind of shit that I hear on their show.
Nichole [00:37:33] I am constantly discovering stuff that I literally don’t hear anywhere else. And I’m like watching a lot of stuff. I’m on Twitter all the time and they often are covering stuff that I have not heard anywhere else. So anyway, yeah, that’s why I recommend it. It’s not always comfortable, you know, to know that. Like Saagar right wing in some of his takes on stuff. But at the end of the day, they are doing honest reporting about things and talking about it from this. Yeah. Like they both have are coming at it from their own viewpoint. So you get to hear a lot of stuff that you don’t hear in other spaces that are required to have like one narrow perspective. I’m fucking here for it.
Callie [00:38:18] Yeah, same. Well, they also have like it’s not just opinion reporting either. I like that. They’re not afraid to admit that they’re not like, you know, unbiased because any media sources says they’re unbiased and like you’re fucking full of shit. Not a single person on this planet is unbiased. There’s just no way that you could possibly be 100 percent neutral in reporting a story, but at least they own it. But it’s not just their opinions on stuff. Like they do have really good reporting too. And yeah, I just. We have to we have to do a better. And that’s other thing too is don’t take everything as fact. Like listen to their show. And if you hear something that seems fucking wonky, like go like Google it. You know, like look into it, too. Like, don’t take any… We listen. We find a media source we like and then we take it as like Bible. Right? Like, we just think that that’s like a hundred percent, whatever this person says. I like them. I trust them. I support them. And it’s like, no. Like, you should always be using your critical thinking skills.
Nichole [00:39:21] Yeah. And just multiple source of sources of information I think is really important. I mean, I get information from like the Indigenous Action Network and then I also watch Rising and I also watch Jimmy Door and sometimes I even watch Joe Rogan if he has like a certain person on there. I like look on Twitter, you know? And yeah, anytime something sounds off or just too outrageous or whatever, I always do my own independent research and see if I can confirm it or not.
Nichole [00:39:52] And. I just think that that’s really importance. And I. I think we shouldn’t have too much purity testing around the news that we consume in terms of the person’s position. I think that that’s really shortsighted. I think it’s actually really good to get news from different perspectives. I think the point is, like you said, for them to be clear and transparent about what their perspective is. And then you also to use that lens when you’re consuming information. I think that’s really important.
Callie [00:40:26] Yeah.
Nichole [00:40:29] Because even just to understand how a certain side thinks and how they interpret things. Right. Because sometimes like Saagar and Krystal will fight. Not really fight like. But, you know, they’ll have disagreements on stuff. And it’s interesting how they’ll take the same news item and have different like interpretations of it. And I’m like, wow, I’m glad I have that insight to how someone else would see this and think about it.
Callie [00:40:55] They also sometimes the biggest surprise to me is when they like agree on certain things.
Nichole [00:41:00] I know!
Callie [00:41:01] You know? I think it’s shown me more than anything else how much there really could be a bridge between like leftists and people that right now have bought into a lot of like right wing, you know, Trumpism type ideology. And as uncomfortable as that is to say, I think there there could be a lot of common ground shared, especially with economic justice in that space, a lot more than I would that I would have thought.
Nichole [00:41:29] Yeah, me too.
Nichole [00:41:31] Yeah, it’s it’s very illuminating, like Jimmy Dore is a nut, but like he covers a lot of stuff and he knows a lot of people, he has a lot of inside… And he is prone to exaggeration. And I fact check him a lot. And he never is like outright lying, but he jumps to a lot of conclusions about things and then he’ll say it as fact and it’s funny because he split from TYT. But that’s a big problem I have with the Young Turks as well as there will be one thing, that’s factually true. And then they blow it out to be almost a whole other thing by how much they exaggerate and harp on it. And I notice Jimmy does that too. But he’s also got like all kinds of people on. He’s constantly has, you know, he’s got a lot of clout for being someone who does independent leftist media.
Nichole [00:42:24] He has a lot of insider information on certain things. So it’s like, yeah, I follow him. And I’m sure for some people that’s “concerning.” But it’s like I get a lot of information from him, but I’m constantly a grain-of-salt everything he says. Right? And it also is good to just sort of challenge my viewpoint constantly.
Nichole [00:42:44] You know?
Nichole [00:42:46] Like he hates Bernie. And he always has. And I started watching before I kind of like fell out of love with Bernie. And even at that time, I was like, OK, like he’s got some valid points and some other stuff I feel like he’s being unfair about. And it was good to just have that viewpoint challenged. I never had, say, blind faith in Bernie exactly. But like, I was a huge supporter of his and so did to allow myself to consume media of someone who wasn’t.
Nichole [00:43:16] But who wasn’t just being a lib, like hating him for no reason, like Jimmy has reasons he doesn’t like Bernie. And it was really good to hear those reasons. Even if I didn’t think they were true or totally agree with them, it was good to, like, challenge that perception I had of him. And now I hate to say it, but like a lot of what he was saying is kind of true. And now my viewpoint has change. But it didn’t change because of him. You know, I mean?
Callie [00:43:44] Yeah, yeah, he. I remember early on him being somewhat critical of AOC too, like back when I was watching him when I was on the Young Turks. And I think I you know, I haven’t really I don’t have like a concrete opinion about her at this point. I like a lot of what she says and does. But there are a lot of like similar red flags between Bernie and AOC and how they like, you know, do really speak out and kind of fire at the establishment. But when push comes to shove, they don’t always stand their ground. And it’s really… It’s nice to hear some leftist critique of of them. You know? For sure. Because we should like we no one should be above critique. Like no one should be like, I love. I I still have so much affection for Bernie, but I’m also, like, deeply angry at him right now. You know, and and that’s where we should always be in this place where it’s like you can really like and respect someone, but they shouldn’t be above criticism. Like you shouldn’t be afraid to be like, this is not what I thought it was. You are not who I thought you were. And I’m going to call that out.
Nichole [00:45:03] Yeah, absolutely. I even just posted my first mad mommy rant in the Bitchy Shitshow group, which longtime listeners and members of the VWPA Society will be familiar with. But, you know, it’s interesting because they came out really hard saying this is an anarcho-communist space. I welcome you if, you know, you don’t have to identify that way to be in here. And I, in fact, welcome you if you don’t. But like, you need to understand that those are the values and priorities we have. And the rant was really instigated by, you know, people being shitty about voting blue no matter who and voting for Biden, which you’re going to talk about in a little bit.
Nichole [00:45:46] But, you know, it was it was great because so many people… I have to say, I just love our listeners so much because anytime I post a bitchy rant like that, people just love it. And I get so much support and I’m like, y’all are wonderful. Just… Saying not like in a sycophantic way, but just like to have that affirmation of who you really are and that you’ve been able to gather people around you who are like go off, you know, be yourself. But it was really touching because a lot of people, you know, a lot of people who commented were like, this is only space I feel like I can be myself, so I really appreciate you not letting these other people come in… Because there’s so much. You know, it’s funny because it’s almost the opposite of what we were just saying. But there’s so much pressure that you have to like be willing to argue about your viewpoint constantly for it to be valid. And there’s a need for you to be able to be in a space where you’re like, I just don’t need to feel that way here. I can just be myself. I can read content, hear from other people who feel the way I do. And then the people who don’t, because that’s what is in the group.
Nichole [00:47:01] I was like, if, you know, vote for Biden. Vote for Biden. I don’t give a shit. That’s fine. I’m not going to argue with you about like what you’re doing with your vote. But do not let me see you vote shaming somebody else or arguing with them. You know, you can explain why you’re doing what you’re doing. You are not allowed to try to change… To make someone else do what you think is right. And I think that’s a really important distinction. So anyway, that was really nice to hear from people who were like this space is one of the only spaces I feel like I can just be myself. And it’s a relief. So like, thank you. And I do want to preserve this culture here.
Nichole [00:47:37] And then there are a few people who are like, I actually don’t really. I don’t share your political viewpoints or I don’t share all of them, but I really enjoy your content. And I think it’s important to just hear how people like you think. And so it’s here point, to the point we were just making is that. That’s exactly it. Like, I have no patience anymore for people who try to argue with you and I over points that we… or viewpoints that we have. And I know from that lake liberal values system that that would mean that we’re narcissists and we like only want people who 100 percent agree with us. And it’s like, no, I actually love when people who don’t agree was with us listen to us, because I do think it’s important to like… Especially since we’re giving out leftist, you know, very socialist kind of ideology I want as many people as possible, at least hearing it and considering it.
Nichole [00:48:38] But what we don’t want is someone consuming our content to then just argue with us and try to tell us we’re wrong or try to demand that we do additional labor to convince them. You know, after we’ve already spent two or three hours on an episode to like then take time for them alone to have this bad faith argument about stuff. And I’m like, no.
Nichole [00:49:05] So anyway, I’ll just say to you, if you’re someone listening and we’re like, way left for you or whatever and you think half the stuff we say is like wild and not true or too much, but you still listen, thank you. I think that that’s a really good thing to do. And I’m trying to like broaden my my consumption to include, you know, I’m never gonna be out here consuming like right wing stuff or harmful, nauseating stuff that I just can’t stand. But but I appreciate a show like Rising where I can dip my toe in what the other side is thinking and feeling without having to like take on things that are just gonna make me too upset.
Callie [00:49:47] I. Yeah. I a hundred percent agree with everything you saying. And I would just add on that, I think a crucial piece to all of this is just whether or not someone has like is going into a discussion or reporting or disagreement, what have you, in good faith or in bad faith.
Callie [00:50:08] And I think. As much as as Nichole just said, I will repeat that I’m really happy that people that some people feel they can listen to our show even without fully agreeing with everything that we say or maybe don’t even really consider themselves leftists. You know, maybe you do fall more in the liberal spectrum, but throwing some of these arguments that you hear all the time in the media, like, you know. Well, then you don’t care about marginalized people if you’re not willing to vote against Trump or just any of these kind of arguments when you’re not actually open to having a discussion about it is when you’re like weaponizing some of us like social justice language. And that’s what I think for the most we don’t have tolerance for anymore in our spaces. And so it’s not that we can’t like. And I won’t speak for Nichole because I think she’s like less has less patience for these kind of conversations right now than I do. But like, I’m open to having a discussion with someone who is feeling very fearful and uncertain about how to vote in this election. In fact, I haven’t made a post on my personal Facebook basically saying like, I’m going to vote third party and I encourage others to do the same. But I get that this is scary and I’m willing to like engage in a conversation about it with people like I’m willing to really talk through it. And I want to hear your fears and I want to let you know that I like I genuinely share them. I’m not just like, well, fuck that.
Callie [00:51:38] Like Trump’s fine and we’re all gonna be fine. No, I get all of that. But it’s when people throw this like these bombs in that we’ve been taught to do as allies or SJW as of like then you don’t care about such and such group. It’s like fill in the blanks! And that’s when you’re making arguments and bad phase. And you’re really you’re then basically putting the other person a position where they can’t disagree with you or else they have to like publicly admit on the Internet that they’re a bigot. And who the fuck is going to do that?
Callie [00:52:10] Like you can’t have any sort of honest conversation when you’re just willing to, like, throw that out, you know, into you, into the disagreement. So, so that’s why I think it was so important. And I really, for a lot of reasons, loved your mad mommy post. I was just like fuckin living for it.
Callie [00:52:31] But but it’s part of that. It’s like everywhere else right now on the Internet, we’re seeing these liberal refrains of why we have to vote for Biden. So it’s like we get it. We’ve heard it. Trust me a lot. There needs to be a space or people feel like they can actually discuss from a very knowledgeable place of like why it’s uncomfortable to vote for Biden or why people feel like they can’t, you know, and we just can’t have this.
Callie [00:53:01] Like in my mind, it’s almost like a broken record. Right. It’s these people that just say these same things over and over and aren’t really like offering anything and also aren’t willing to, like talk it through. They just want to like drop this bomb of like, well, then you don’t give a fuck about fill in the blank group. So like, fuck you. And it’s like we don’t need that. We don’t need that. Like, who are you talking to? Like we actually had someone I did not even know I was gonna go this way. But I’m bringing this up on the show. We actually had someone basically accuse us on Twitter of internalized misogyny because we (busts out laughing) we wouldn’t vote for Biden.
Nichole [00:53:44] No it’s because of Warren!
Callie [00:53:46] Oh, right, right.
Nichole [00:53:48] It was a Warren stand and someone was making fun of her because she just said like she would accept a V.P. bid for Biden from Biden. And, you know, so like they were just making fun of her, whatever. And I don’t even remember what I posted initially. But, yeah, someone came on and was like… Oh, cause someone. OK. I remember what happened. So is Nathan Robinson from Current Affairs posted something dragging Elizabeth Warren but like in a factual way. It was funny, but it also wasn’t like just, yeah, you know, like it was it was factual. And and wasn’t attacking her was just basically like stating facts that were true and are funny because they’re true. And then some dude and I am gendering people but it just felt dudely. Some dude was like, Oh yeah, and you’re attacking a woman like not a good look man, or something like that.
Nichole [00:54:49] And I just was like, can you fuckin libs cut it out with the virtue signaling? I have fucking had it. I actually don’t identify as a woman, but I was like, just to make a point. I was like, it is so condescending to say that someone can’t critique someone factually because they’re a woman. And I was like, signed a woman. Like, can we all stop this, please?
Nichole [00:55:14] And then. Yeah. And then some girl came on and was like, (says condescendingly) “internalized misogyny is a BITCH.” (Callie bursts out laughing)
Nichole [00:55:20] And it just was like…
Callie [00:55:23] She really thought she had something there (laughing).
Nichole [00:55:25] Oh, she though that was like, fire! She’s like, there’s fucking levels to this shit.
Callie [00:55:36] I had to hand it to her- I laughed. I was like, this, this is hilarious.
Nichole [00:55:42] Yeah, it was funny.
Callie [00:55:42] Yeah.
Nichole [00:55:43] Not for the reason she thought it but it was hilarious. Yeah. So Callie and I ended up responding separately like enraged posts.
Nichole [00:55:53] But exactly like you’re not… So, honestly, that’s a good example of this mindset that we’re living in right now with the fucking libs is that like if you don’t support Warren, you’re either sexist or have internalized misogyny and those are your only options.
Callie [00:56:12] Or want Trump to be president.
Nichole [00:56:16] Well, I mean, naturally. But like, how fucked up is that your definition of feminism, of something that is supposed to liberate marginalized genders is that you have to support an imperialist appropriating snake or you’re suffering from internalized oppression. Those are your two choices. Those are the only two choices.
Nichole [00:56:48] And of course, I don’t think she ever responded. Callie and I both were like, because I was like, that is extremely condescending. And you’re basically telling me, like, I have to support her. And if I don’t, it’s definitely not because I followed her policies closely and have come to my own conclusions about her like politics. It’s just because I have internalized misogyny. (both laughing)
Nichole [00:57:12] And they never do. They never respond. And if they respond, they don’t address… They don’t address any of your points. Right? Like you can list out policy. You can list out facts, all this stuff. And they will not address them. They’ll just like you said, they’ll just regurgitate the same tired lines over and over.
Nichole [00:57:30] Actually, the thing that made me laugh the most hard this last week, week and a half I posted on Twitter, I was like, libs are so boring with like the crying, laughing emoji.
Nichole [00:57:43] And then I like in another one I was like, as if I’m going to waste my time fighting back against the same tired three talking points that these like MSNBC-bitten zombies fucking spew out ad nauseum. And then the third, like the final two, it was like, yeah, like, fine. Then I’m I’m I’m to blame for Trump getting reelected. What else you got?
Nichole [00:58:11] Cause that’s like what they try to shut you down with. So it’s like fine. Yeah. I want him to be president. I don’t. But I was like, fine. Like what else do you have? And of course the first person was like the “Supreme Court though!”
Nichole [00:58:24] And just like, yeah, you boring ass piece of shit! I literally was like yawn.
Callie [00:58:33] Right. (both laughing) Like we’ve never (talking over each other laughing) like we’ve never, wait a minute! The Supreme Court’s at play!? Why didn’t anyone tell us?!
Callie [00:58:47] Yeah! We been known.
Nichole [00:58:51] Yeah!
Nichole [00:58:52] But like they literally this is what I don’t get about libs is that they clearly like they get their news and their talking points off of mainstream media. Right. It’s right there in the name. It’s mainstream. It’s the stuff that everybody is hearing. And yet they’ll shoot those lines at you like they’re a fuckin savant. Like, they have just closed down the conversation and they’ve hit you with like the most fire fucking point that you couldn’t possibly come back from. And it’s like, how can you sit here and be proud of yourself when literally all you’re doing is saying what someone else told you to say and think. It’s so fucking annoying.
Nichole [00:59:35] Yep. And then, like I said, this is way I like officially, as of, you know, a few days ago. I don’t get involved in these conversations anymore because I will spend 15, 20 minutes like writing stuff back to be like this point, this point, this point, all these facts, links to articles! And then they just come back with like, well, you’re gonna get Trump reelected.
Callie [00:59:55] Yeah, that’s the thing! It’s another bad faith conversation because, oh, someone wants to come back with what about the Supreme Court, though? And it’s like, well, then let’s talk about the fuckin Supreme Court and Biden’s history with his picks on the Supreme Court or how Obama, like, tried to push through Merrick Garland, who’s like practically a Republican himself.
Callie [01:00:17] And it’s like even your fuckin liberal heroes are putting these like conservatives on the fucking court. So, like, what you got now? I mean, and that’s a thing. It’s like if someone wants to reach out and engage in a conversation of like, well, what about this? I’m really worried about this and is open to having a discussion, then fucking fine.
Callie [01:00:40] But like these half-baked thoughts, like you said, they really think they have something like they think they’re saying something so different and revolutionary and then they’re not even like listening to the answer like this per- this person who came in and accused us of internalized misogyny and I responded back with like I have internalized misogyny?! Like I’M the one who’s like saying I won’t vote for a fucking rapist!
Callie [01:01:08] No answer. Of course not. Like I didn’t expect one. And it’s like, fine. If you have a justification for why you think that, that shouldn’t matter. Then like let’s let’s have a discussion. But no, you don’t want to talk about it. You want all of the sins of the liberals washed away and not really engage in a conversation and throw some sort of like SJW bullshit against us. Not today.
Nichole [01:01:34] And then call us privileged.
Callie [01:01:36] Also that. Yeah. (laughs)
Callie [01:01:41] And I know we’re saying like we’re speaking to. I’m sure a lot of what you all are experiencing right now. I mean, I’m seeing it on my timeline. I’m seeing friends and I’m seeing other people posting in the group of like they’re trying to have these discussions and just being shut down by all this, like brick wall of neoliberal “logic,” you know, where people like they don’t really they don’t really know what they’re talking about. They just like hear these lines and they regurgitate them. And I think at some points in our political development, we all go through that phase. I mean, I definitely did. But we just have to… It’s so exhausting. It’s so fucking exhausting. And it’s honestly one of the biggest reasons why I feel so strongly about not voting for Biden, because I think as long as we continue to, like play this game, we’re not going to be getting through to these people. So it’s like if we can’t be comfortable, you can’t be comfortable either.
Callie [01:02:40] You’re going to actually have to like engage in these conversations.
Nichole [01:02:46] Yeah, I like that Jimmy Dore was talking about. I was actually watching an interview him on Joe Rogan’s show from 2018 like August 2018, and it was funny because he was reading a tweet from Alyssa Milano talking about protest votes for like the third party, right?
Nichole [01:03:10] And he’s like, you’re not even vote-shaming, your democracy-shaming.
Nichole [01:03:15] Like she was using that tired line and any left in the comments, I’m like, it’s so surreal to watch this from 20/20. Him talking about Alyssa Milano and vote-shaming. And I’m like, just you wait. Yeah, Like it’s going to get a lot worse. Be-I he was talking about his like, what the fuck is that?
Nichole [01:03:37] Where people are literally telling you your vote doesn’t count unless you’re voting the way they want you to. Like what kind of fucking sham… Like they’re not even pretending that this is democracy anymore. They’re literally telling you we chose who it is getting fucking line. And vote for him so that we can continue this farce. Otherwise, we’re going to blame you for the tyrant who is going to hurt you more than he’s gonna hurt me.
Nichole [01:04:10] Like, that’s the thing, too, with these fucking libs is I’m like, what are you even so afraid of? Trump isn’t doing jack shit to you. You’re fine. You’ll be fine. Maybe he’s making you uncomfortable because the news is actually covering what he’s doing and the news is telling you to hate him. So you have anxiety. And you can’t brunch as casually as you could before.
Nichole [01:04:33] But like, what is he actually doing to you, really? That Obama wasn’t doing to people, that Bush wasn’t doing to people, that Clinton wasn’t doing the people. And don’t get me wrong, I hate Trump. But I hate Obama and I hate the Clintons… Famously.
Nichole [01:04:56] The way I feel about Hillary, I must have just gobs of internalized misogyny there because that fucking cunt. If fucking hate her.
Callie [01:05:06] Such as sexist.
Nichole [01:05:08] I know. So sexist.
Nichole [01:05:11] Yeah. You know, I fucking hate George W. Bush. I hate him. That election broke me. That election kept me out of politics for a while. So it’s. Yeah, it’s just. It’s all of it! It’s the inherent violence of shaming… of trying to force someone else to participate in a system that is built to work against them and then blaming them for their own oppression. One way or the other. It’s like how everyone keeps saying that, you know, the Bernie base wasn’t strong enough to get Berney into office, but is somehow so powerful that they’re deciding this election. Right? And it’s like, get the fuck out of here.
Nichole [01:05:59] Kyle Kulinski, who’s another person I watch and follow, has been taking a very strong stance on his show and on Twitter about not voting for Biden and getting so much shit about it. But he and others have just been like, look, there is not a party currently that represents me. There was a candidate who represented my interest. So I was willing to vote for that person because he had policies that represent my interests. But that candidate is no longer available. So why the fuck are you screaming at me to vote outside my party? Like these people are not going to independents and yelling at them. They’re not going to Republicans and yelling at them.
Nichole [01:06:43] They’re only yelling at these people who basically were registered Democrat for Bernie and now have no representation. How the fuck is that democracy!?
Nichole [01:06:55] And so if we want to get together and try to hit 5 percent for the Green Party, that’s our fucking business. But the Democrats don’t represent us. Biden doesn’t represent us. We don’t have a single policy anymore, represented. NOT ONE. And yet people want to blame us for not falling in line for the person they shoved down our throats and literally committed like fraud to get up there. However, you want to define fraud. I don’t see how you cannot think that how this was done was corrupt. They didn’t even try to hide it.
Callie [01:07:33] No. And. That’s one of my biggest issues with Bernie. And just this whole idea of being forced into voting for Biden, it’s like this, this isn’t just me being like a sore loser or whatever. This election is literally not legitimate. There were clear cases of voter fraud and voter suppression and election rigging. And accepting that is like the least Democratic thing we can do. And I just I don’t understand why the Bernie campaign didn’t push back harder. I don’t know why, like all this stuff would come out where they’d be like, oh, there’s some like weird numbers with this or like the exit polling is like far exceeds the kind of acceptable levels of the the swing in votes as defined by the U.N. And we’re just like, well, that’s weird. And that kind of sucks. But like moving on to the next state, it’s like, no, no, no. Like, not not moving on. That’s. You can’t expect people to vote in a system that they already know is going to harm them to a certain degree, and then just tell them that like it really doesn’t matter that the election results don’t make sense.
Callie [01:08:56] It’s like I’m not… I am no longer going to be complicit in participating in a system that is gaslighting us all into believing that we live in a democracy. We do not live in a democracy. We don’t. Period. That’s not me being that’s not me exaggerating. That’s not me overblowing things or being dramatic. We literally do not have a democracy. We have voting. We have the farce of voting. But we do not have an actual democracy in numeral in numerous ways. It’s not even just, you know, in this one election. Or if you want to look at 2016, too. Like there are a lot of ways in which it it doesn’t make sense. I mean, we bringing up all the time, but that Harvard study that shows that if we lived in a true democracy, the will of the people would much closer reflect the legislation coming out of Congress. And it’s it doesn’t it should be, you know, a diagonal line in the the way you expect, like as public support increases, then the chance of it passing increases. But right now, it’s like a flat 30 percent. There is a 30 percent chance that something 0 percent of the public supports gets voted in as a new law or as legislation. And then there is a 30 percent chance that something a hundred percent of the public supports. That is not a democracy. Right there! Like that is not a democracy. And then you add in all the voter suppression and and vote-shaming and the rigging. And it’s just… I keep seeing liberals online and I’ve been seeing it for the last few years, ever since 2016. They’re just like, oh, my God, Trump is this existential threat and we will lose our democracy! And I’m guilty of even saying it, too. But it’s like, babe, we already don’t have one. We don’t have one. And by making it seem… We never did. And by making it seem like he’s this sort of like singular threat is is honestly just a form of propaganda and gaslighting everyone. And I just won’t I won’t participate in it anymore.
Nichole [01:11:14] Yeah, same. And there’s just so much flattening of conversations, which is it’s extremely dangerous. There is. You know, I posted on Twitter that… There is obviously fascism and authoritarianism on the right. Currently. But it’s also on the left. It just looks different. So, for instance, you know, the way the social media is handled, Biden and the Tara Reade allegations the way they handled the entire Bernie campaign.
Nichole [01:11:54] The control of information and the manipulation of a narrative is as authoritarian as anything Trump is doing. And the left is doing that as well. The quote unquote left, they’re not actually left. The Dems are doing that as well. The DNC is doing it. The mainstream media is doing it. They literally misrepresented like mal-information is a thing. You know, it’s not fake news because what they do is they use something real, but they either put it in a context or strip the context away from the real thing to create a different perception of what that real thing means.
Nichole [01:12:36] So, for instance, you have. Bernie won New Hampshire. I think that was where Buttigieg and Klobuchar came in second and third, respectively. You have a news outlet where the headline says Sanders wins. Buttigieg, Klobuchar place second, third. But the giant image is of Buttigieg’s and Klobuchar’s crowds, people, supporters holding signs of their names. So if you just look at it, what sticks in your head is this victorious picture of Buttigieg and Klobuchar, right? That’s mal-information. And we see this all over the place. We see this with the New York Times reporting of Tara Reade. They report. They say there’s really no proof, even though there is potentially proof, but it’s sealed, even though it shouldn’t be. And instead of saying, hmm, that’s weird that it’s sealed.
Nichole [01:13:37] We should get… You know, someone should open those up. We should pressure Biden to release those records. They start putting in weird shit like saying that filing a false criminal charge is… will have X, Y, Z penalty and is a felony. And then they add in this whole weird paragraph about Trump and all of his allegations, essentially saying that even if this ends up being true, just remember the other guy’s worse.
Nichole [01:14:09] Then they tweet out, there was no proof of sexual assault. Aside from or there’s no proof of sexual misconduct aside from like unwanted touching, kissing. Whatever the Biden campaign reaches out and is like, we don’t like that tweet they delete it. They don’t update or correct… They also change like wording in the article.
Callie [01:14:39] Yeah, they let the Biden campaign edit their article and approve it before it went out.
Nichole [01:14:46] Mm hmm.
Callie [01:14:47] In what world do you let the accused literally edit the narrative coming out against them with charges?
Nichole [01:14:57] Yeah.
Nichole [01:14:59] Yeah. So just… I think a big part of what a lot of us on the actual left are pushing back with all of this, is this refusal to allow… This refusal to validate the bullshit.
Nichole [01:15:20] And yeah, Trump is scary, but honestly, for a lot of us, he’s not any scarier than someone else getting in and everyone just going back to sleep. And for a lot of us, we’ve survived four years of Trump.
Nichole [01:15:37] We know what it’s like. We’ve survived Obama. We’ve survived Bush, we’ve survived Clinton and whoever else. And so it’s not a worthy threat. To validate the DNC, to validate this sham of a process and to validate the oppression of everyone. To play this game, just to try to have a chance at keeping Trump out of the White House, which we all know. I mean, who knows? Things are crazy right now. So maybe Biden can win, but I extremely highly doubt it. I think it’s a very far shot. Yeah.
Nichole [01:16:16] And then you’re gonna come to this underrepresented, oppressed minority and point the finger at us and say, we’re to blame for Trump, not you, not the establishment who put in these Republicans masquerading as Democrats who did all of this harmful shit and got our country into such a terrible state that we were willing to elect a fucking reality show host. Who’s a goddamn monster. Because people were so desperate to actually shake up the system. But that’s all on us. That’s all on Bernie’s supporters (scoffs)… that’s all on us.
Callie [01:16:59] One of the things, too, that I’ve been thinking about a lot is strategy. And for me, we can’t we can’t afford four more wasted years of Trump. And I am not I’m not going to downplay it. It’s going to be fuckin rough, especially in light of the Coronavirus and what a mess our economy is going to be in and the fact that you have literal Republican representatives on the news talking about how people are willingly like… They’re willing to sacrifice their life in order to preserve our economy. I mean, that’s some fucking dystopian nightmare shit. Okay. I am not downplaying any of that, but. If we allow the DNC to get away with this again, they will do it again. Like we let them do it in 2016. And they did it even more blatantly. They fuckin stole this election right in front of our eyes at the time when we are supposedly under the biggest threat to our democracy that’s ever existed. If they were willing to play chicken with someone like Trump on the ballot, then they will never care about what we want. Like they will never stop this cycle. They would literally rather put up all the weakest possible… Biden was the worst candidate to go up against Trump. He is literally the worst. As much as I loathe like Buttigieg and Klobuchar and even fucking Warren, Biden is the worst candidate that could have gone up against Trump because all of the things that Trump is weak on. Biden is weak on. And he’s clearly not able to like hold a coherent thought in his head. Like he is just the worst possible person to run.
Callie [01:18:59] He is the one who the only Democrat who was implicated in this whole impeachment scandal because of his family corruption. It’s like he’s the he’s the worst. So for the DNC to literally pull all of these strings in order to make him the nominee and put him against put him up against Trump means that they will never stop doing this. We will never be able to push them. We’ll never be able to move them. They literally don’t care. And I think this is something, Nichole, that you had said to me and I don’t know if you got it from somewhere else or not. So let me know if you did. But you were talking about how, like the DNC didn’t hate Bernie. They hate what he stands for. So we we talk about things like, oh, the DNC just hated Bernie. They did everything they could to stop Bernie. It’s like it’s not necessarily Bernie the person. It’s his policies that said he was tapping into this like very real anger that exists in our country for people that are being disadvantaged, that are being minoritized, that are being left behind. And so they don’t hate him. They hate us. They hate all the people who were reached by his policies. So I don’t know why we tend to think that we can move them or negotiate with them to give us what we want, because they didn’t steal this election from him. They stole it from us.
Nichole [01:20:25] Exactly.
Nichole [01:20:26] Well, and just too… Yeah, that’s what I was trying to get out before, is that for you as a Biden supporter or just like establishment, I’m going to vote as long as this person has a D next to their name to come to someone who is a Bernie supporter and then just say like everything’s your fault if you don’t vote for this guy. You just went through this entire process to show me that my interests will never be represented and that you literally will do anything, including four more years of Trump to prevent my agenda from ever having any validity in this political process but then you’re gonna come to me and present Trump as an existential threat. What is an existential threat? Is me never having my interests represented in the system, which you just showed me unequivocally is 100 percent the case. Non-negotiable. So that’s why I’m not going to vote for your guy.
Nichole [01:21:33] I just want to touch on and point to that, that it’s a false equivalency to say that it’s either Biden or Trump. Four more years of Trump. Part of the whole point of what those of us who are like radical in wanting to work outside of this system, is that why are you going to give Trump four more years? Who cares who gets voted for this whole thing’s a fuckin sham. Fine. He gets quote unquote wins the election.
Nichole [01:22:04] Why are you going to allow him to serve four more years? There are so many of us, and I definitely include myself in this even if I don’t know how to quite do it yet. But I am done working within the system. So you get in my face about four more years of Trump. I don’t give a shit. Get off your fucking ass. Strike. Organize with other people and get that monster out of out of power, but also fuck up and burn down the whole system.
Nichole [01:22:36] Why are you playing there with their rules? Why are you going to say, okay, it’s Trump, I guess that’s just what it has to be? Why, when you organize and strike like you think you can push Biden left after he’s already the presumptive nominee and after he gets the presidential nomination but you don’t think that you could push Trump?
Nichole [01:22:54] If you feel that you can actually push someone, you can push anyone. You just have to be willing to do the fucking organizing and striking it takes to get it done. Not voting. Not voting a certain way. That’s a joke. They blame Bernie people for Trump getting the first term. And no one ever blames the Electoral College who actually put him in power.
Nichole [01:23:25] Why? Why? Why are we all playing along with this game? Why!? Why are we saying it’s for years, of Biden or four years of Trump? Why are we saying it’s two months of Trump and and we shut this motherfucker down?
Callie [01:23:43] Yessss bitch! Well and Biden’s not even the nominee yet! He’s the presumptive nominee. Like, we’re so we’re so well trained to just roll over at any sign of pushback by the establishment that they’re like, oh, Bernie dropped out. Biden is the nominee. This… The next four years are already done. And it’s like, what? He’s not even… This is not even done yet.
Callie [01:24:07] I mean, we we could all be like, no, you need to count all those fucking votes that you didn’t count before. We refuse. Like we all are Dem-exiting, like just in mass. Like we all change our registration or we demand vote by mail and we say we revote again as the entire country. And yes, like you even said I think, I don’t know if it was a livestream on a previous episode, but like put everyone back in the running! Like we need to redo this election. It was so clearly a sham. Like it just the fact that we’re just like, oh, well, this but this is how the system works. It’s like, y’all, we are so far outside of the normal right now. Why are we still allowing any of this to go forward as normal? And my biggest concern with going… I don’t even think Biden could win another four years. But even if he could, the strategy is like if he wins, then he won’t obviously go on for eight because he probably can’t even make it four. But you know that his V.P. is gonna be picked to serve after him. Right? There’s gonna be some sort of like handoff. So if we get him in the White House, then that probably means eight, if not twelve years of some, like, fucking milquetoast, like neoliberal in office.
Callie [01:25:29] We do not have eight to 12 years for someone who’s not going to give us Medicare for All, who literally is still laughing in the face of anyone who says Medicare for All. Even during a global pandemic where 20 million people have now gone on unemployment have lost their jobs, and he’s still laughing about any sort of system that isn’t employer-based, for profit health care. Someone who’s thinks that fighting climate change is just rejoining the Paris Accord? Like, are you are you fucking serious? Like that’s not even anywhere near enough. So this strategy is like like you said, we’ve survived four years of Trump. Not all of us, unfortunately, but like most of us have made it through. It’s been rough. It will continue to be rough.
Callie [01:26:22] But I think what we can’t do is do another four or eight or, you know, twelve years of some sort of Democrat who’s just going to put liberals back to sleep and we’re gonna get nowhere. And there’s just gonna be this fracturing. You know that I don’t know that we’ll ever come back from.
Callie [01:26:42] And before you fuckin at me or rage tweet about how I’m literally sacrificing lives or doing some sort of math where I’m accepting losses. Liberals are doing that same math, too. And we don’t ever we don’t ever accuse them of that. Like they’re the ones that are like, oh, well, we should vote for Biden, you know, because like Trump is getting people killed. Well, so do the Democrats! Obama fuckin took a sip of water in front of Flint, Mich.. He could have done something for the people of Flint. They were liter- Families are being poisoned. They will have health issues for the rest of their lives. And he thought it was appropriate to drink a glass of water in front of them, laughing about it as if he was proving the water was safe. I don’t know if you follow the story at all, but I’ve been listening a lot to Rumble. And Michael Moore was talking about how they literally found out after the fact that that water came from Air Force One. It… Which, of course, we all knew he wasn’t fucking drinking that poisoned water. But the water was turned off in the school. He couldn’t have even drink the water. And the people knew that while they were sitting there.
Callie [01:27:55] So you really want to put in some sort of Democrat who’s gonna like bomb the fuck out of the Middle East? Who’s going to enact coups in South America that overturn democratically elected leftist leaders to install some right wing dictator who’s gonna sell us oil, who’s literally going to keep putting our own friends and neighbors in jail? Like we’re not the only ones doing math about acceptable losses. And I’m fucking tired of being treated like some sort of monster for that when they’re the ones doing it.
Callie [01:28:31] Oh, you’re worried about losing Roe v. Wade? Like, that’s the other thing, too. I’m going off on this whole fucking tangent. People keep talking about Roe v. Wade. Right. And like how? Oh, but like, if we have another four years of Trump, he’ll get to put people on the Supreme Court and we’ll lose Roe v. Wade. Then you know what, rally! So that the next time we’re not stuck with some DNC fucking ghoul and get a fucking president in there who will push through an amendment that codifies pro-choice in our fucking constitution. Why are we even allowing our only progress to be through some Supreme Court that is just this volleyball back and forth between us slightly right ghoul and a slightly less right ghoul who has a D by their name. It’s so fucking frustrating. We cannot keep playing these games!
Nichole [01:29:25] Right. Like that’s my point is if you’re going to try to fearmonger me over abortion, then why are we just fucking rioting until abortion is codified? Why am I waiting on some dude to get in to a position of power? And then like, please, sir, can you give me abortion access and abortion rights? No!
Nichole [01:29:47] And I was following someone who is talking about. There’s a study that I’ll post to in the show notes. But the Supreme Court, no matter the composition of it, essentially always serves the demands of the elite class. So this whole Supreme Court thing is just another strawman. It’s not a real argument. And even your faves, like RBG like she is, you know, she’s called Colin Kaepernick disrespectful. She’s just as fucking ghoulish as the rest of them. She may have fought for some stuff, but she’s just like any other fucking like white woman out there fighting for shit. Where she’s leaving a lot of people behind.
Nichole [01:30:36] And so there’s a lot of people are just like you all need to stop. Like no matter who ends up ceding the Supreme Court, it’s not really going to matter. This stuff doesn’t… Yeah, we can like fearmonger over all these hypothetical things. And yeah, things are bad. But the whole point that we’re trying to make people who are pushing and like protest not voting or voting third party is that. Things are always really fucking bad. I love that you made the point of everyone’s doing math. So be fucking honest about it. You’re telling us to vote in someone who had a heavy hand and getting half a million people killed. And you want to tell me to do fucking math? You want to tell me how dangerous Trump is and you’re gonna let that guy through?
Nichole [01:31:27] THAT’S the guy who’s going to come in and save us from this monstrous administration. Yeah, that administration might be more pro-science, but they’re not going to be less capitalist. Do you think we’re really going to have a better time with medical supplies under a Biden administration? No. We know we’re not going to have health care. We’re still going to have overcrowded hospitals and people going into debt for the rest of their lives. And this is a guy who fight to try to get medical debt to not be able to be wiped out by bankruptcy. And you want that guy in charge during a pandemic!? Are you out of your fucking mind?! At least if Trump is trying to do shit like that? The news is reporting on it! At least people care if Biden or fucking Obama is doing it nobody gives a shit!
Callie [01:32:17] Yeah.
Nichole [01:32:18] So get out of my fucking face with that!
Callie [01:32:22] So well said that that’s my biggest concern. And call me fuckin privileged. Call me whatever you want. But I refuse to allow liberals to go back to sleep because people will still be dying. They just won’t be hearing about it. And it’s like if you’re worried about losing, you know, marriage equality or you’re worried about losing abortion access, then you’ll be paying attention and fighting with the people who are already struggling. But you’ll go back to sleep the minute we get some fucking Democrat. And all those people of color that you love to use as some sort of weapon on Twitter, as if we’re the ones throwing them under the bus, it’s like, where the fuck are you? Where are you? Biden’s gonna get elected. He won’t. But if he were, you’re gonna disappear and you’re gonna go… You’re not going to be doing your fuckin women’s marches as fuckin sad and problematic as those even are with all your fucking pussy hats and shit. But like you’re gonna go back to brunch, and communities of color are still gonna be poisoned by toxic lagoons of pig shit and broken pipes and chemicals pouring into their water sources. They’re still going to be harassed and killed by the police, they’re still gonna be thrown in jail. Like where the fuck are you gonna be?
Callie [01:33:44] Nowhere to be found!
Callie [01:33:48] So no.
Callie [01:33:50] We’re going down. We’re all going down together.
Nichole [01:33:53] Exactly.
Callie [01:33:54] You don’t get to check out of this shit.
Nichole [01:33:57] Yeah. And we know that that’s what’s gonna happen. Because, again, to my point, you’re talking about four more years of Trump. Or four years, of Biden.
Nichole [01:34:09] So I know you’re not going to fight. I know you’re not going to fight Biden to get him to be more progressive because you’re already talking about this as a finite event in time that when it happens, then it’s done. And then that’s the reality.
Nichole [01:34:25] You’re not telling me, you’re not telling me “vote for Biden and I will strike in protest by your side.” Even then, I still tell you to probably go fuck yourself. But at least I know, right? That like you get it. That like, whatever happens, the system is never going to work for us. If it can’t, the system cannot work for us. It never, ever has. And when you call someone privileged for that, you show a deep and should be embarrassing amount of ignorance about the history of this country and how our elections actually work and who they work for. That’s why if you go on social media, it’s, sure there are plenty of white people saying that they’re not going to vote or that they’re going to, you know, sharpening their guillotines, etcetera. But there is a ton of people of color, too. And that’s because they fucking get it. They fucking understand that this system is not made to work for them. It literally is structured to work against them.
Nichole [01:35:32] The Electoral College was meant to work against freed black people. Our voting, redlining, everything about our voting system is meant to work against the poor and POC. You have indigenous people who are like, why are you fucking talking to me about participating in a system that I don’t even fucking recognize? Right! So get the fuck out of here with this privilege bullshit. Quit trying to shame people into doing what you want. That’s literally violent and it’s exceptionally violent when you’re talking about voting for somebody who has caused so many deaths, so many loss of rights, and just unbelievable economic violence.
Nichole [01:36:20] I am like Biden, had 50 years to show me, to earn my vote. He didn’t do it. There’s nothing he can do in the next few months that’s going to get it.
Callie [01:36:32] He’s still actively showing us he doesn’t deserve it. He is… I’m not even exaggerating. He’s literally laughing in people’s faces about Medicare for All. People are like, oh, that’s really sad that… Yeah. It’s really sad that Bernie didn’t win, but Bernie’s ideas won. It’s like. Guess what? That doesn’t mean shit when you have someone who doesn’t fucking care! Yeah. Exit polling shows that even though people voted for Biden, which like how? But. But that they want Medicare for all. And it’s like Biden is not going to give it to you!
Callie [01:37:08] It doesn’t matter that the discourse has moved forward. If we have people who like do not care to give those policies to us, to even meet us in the middle, I mean, that the only concessions that Bernie seem to have gotten out of dropping out now is that there are task forces that are going to be formed.
Callie [01:37:28] There’s not even a Medicare for all or health care task force, which was the number one issue with this election. It is the number one thing that people cared about is health care.
Callie [01:37:41] They are literally just spitting in y’all’s faces and you’re still trying to argue that we have any sort of leverage in moving these people once they get an office. If we can’t move them now when they need our vote, why do you think they will move later when they don’t need anything from us? I don’t get it. It’s like it’s like going in to a fight and telling the other person like, I’m going to let you win no matter what.
Callie [01:38:11] Why!? Why would you want all these people that spread propaganda like a year ago saying like, we’re getting into election season and before we even go any further. You better get over your purity tests now because you’re probably not going to 100 percent love whoever the nominee is and get over that shit now. It’s like you literally just went into a negotiation telling the other side that no matter what they do, you’ll let them win. Why would they give you any concessions? It makes no fucking sense.
Nichole [01:38:46] No, it makes no fucking sense. And frankly, it just shows how weak and again, uninformed everyone is. And I’m sick of it. Yeah, I am actively I’m not just sick of it. Like intellectually, I’m sick of it, like how it’s impacted my direct life my entire life. How it’s currently impacting my sister and her family. I am tired of it. My friends, people I care about, activists I care about, and just my general empathy towards other human beings. I am fucking sick of it. I am so sad to hear people in other countries talking about how the U.S. affects them, how we’ve terrorized people. There’s an article I’ll link to the show, notes to the talks about how Biden, like, destroy it, like they live in Iraq and like Biden link destroyed their home. Like, these are real fucking people. These aren’t just statistics. He’s had a heavy hand in ruining people’s countries. And you all want to talk about how he’s the lesser of two evils?
Nichole [01:39:52] Trump is a maniac. Tell me what kind of wide spread like destruction he is caused on that scale. He hasn’t. I’m sorry. He’s done bad shit. I’m not saying he’s a good person. I fucking hate him. But he has not done something on this scale of like the Iraq war. Which Bush did in his first term and got reelected with high popularity. So where the fuck were all of you back then? These same people telling me Trump is existential threat and you gleefully were probably voting for Bush back then or were fine with it. We didn’t have news coverage like this about Bush then. We didn’t have this kind of fear mongering about he was like the worst, most dangerous person who’s ever lived. Give me a fucking break. Why? Because he’s killing brown people in other countries and you didn’t give a shit.
Callie [01:40:48] No. The media all lined up behind his war effort immediately. I mean, the entire media basically turned into a pro-war like ‘merican propagandaist, right. That we need to be like, oh, we he’s protecting us. He’s protecting our freedoms. We’re liberating those people from the bad terrorists. It’s like it’s so disgusting. Our media is supposed to hold the powerful accountable. And all they are doing is serving as propaganda for our imperialists destructive government that is not only killing us, but killing millions around the world.
Nichole [01:41:30] Exactly. And you all just don’t like him because he’s doing shit on your turf and you have to fucking see it and pay attention to it because the news is actually reporting on it. I mean, Obama is doing the same thing, but you didn’t give a shit. Then you just care now because MSNBC and CNN are like showing it to you and making you feel bad about it and you want to stop feeling bad about it. Guess what? Too bad! I want you to feel bad. I want you all to feel fucking terrible. I want you to be afraid. I want you to pay attention. I want you to get the fuck out of my way because I’m not wasting any more energy or time trying to talk through your fucking zombie rotten brain where you can’t even think for your fucking self anymore. And you don’t actually know any facts at all.
Nichole [01:42:18] So shut the fuck up, sit the fuck down. Your time has come. You’re scared now. You’re just fuckin wait. You just fucking wait till you’re a little cushy world view goes out the goddamn window and brunch is not available for years because we’re fucking rioting and also dealing with a pandemic. I’m not doing it. I’m not doing it.
Nichole [01:42:42] Trump is terrible. Yes, but you are posing. You’re being dishonest about the alternative. And you are telling people like me, telling people like us that you absolutely want to turn away, that you support this oppressive, violent system that we have that forces us to participate in our own oppression or be blamed for our own oppression. That’s fucking sick. That is disgusting. That’s gaslighting. It’s abuse. It is abuse. To go to someone and say, you need to do this or else you’re gonna be in trouble. And then when you do it, you’re still in trouble. And you’re either way, you’re blamed for what you’ve done. You’re blamed for your own experience of oppression. It’s fucking gross. And it’s such a white viewpoint. And that’s why I can’t stand the privileged conversation. Only white people think that democracy actually works. So don’t get up in here and tell me that I’m privileged for refusing to participate in this fucking bullshit. It’s bullshit. It’s a scam. It’s a huge scam. And we’ll do an episode soon like detailing the actual structure and history and how the political system really works. But it’s a fucking sham. It is 100 percent literally all you need to know is the electoral college can be like this was all cute, but they can just pick whoever they want for president at the end of the day. Now they’ll play along just enough to let people still think that there is some kind of system here and that it’s our fault when it doesn’t work. But we don’t actually have any power in our own system. We don’t.
Nichole [01:44:29] So vote however the fuck you want to vote. I really don’t give a shit. I honestly think it’s so boring to talk about. But like, keep your fucking eyes open and actually do something. Do something because of Biden by some miracle, somehow gets in. And you think, I’m going to go breathe a sigh of relief that my uterus is safe because that’s what you’ll keep threatening me with. You’re out of your fucking mind. First of all, my uterus is not safe with that ghoul. But second of all, how about all the other fucking things he’s gonna do that are gonna be fucking atrocious? He has already said that he would consider adding Republicans to his staff, his cabinet, and he’s already floating out people like Jamie Dimon, who like all of these big bankers that literally got us into and had to pay fines to our government for the 2008 recession.
Nichole [01:45:26] So that’s what I’m talking about, what math are you doing? What math are you doing? Like who are you advocating for with Trump? Is it immigrants? I hope so. But I have a feeling it’s not. I do have a feeling it’s more issues that scare you personally, like abortion rights. So fine, I care about those people, too. I care about those things, too. But I also care about the entire structure of our economy and how many people are going to be impacted by another recession, depression, which we’re basically already in. And this fucking ghoul wants to put these people in charge in the middle of that.
Nichole [01:46:02] Are you fucking kidding me? We’re all gonna die. Like you’re gonna watch people starve to death if that happens. This is fucking disgusting. People are gonna be homeless and it’s going to impact those of you who are like, no, no, I really care about like people of color that’s who I’m advocating for. Do you know who’s gonna get hurt? Hurt the worst? Do you know who’s hurting the worst right now? Those communities.
Nichole [01:46:28] And you think Biden’s gonna do jack shit for them? Biden is an economic terrorist. He’s going to make their lives worse in every conceivable way. And you are going to be shut off. You’re gonna be checked out and you’re gonna be breathing a sigh of relief that we can go back to, quote unquote, normal, which was a living daily nightmare for most of us. Normal was a fucking hellscape.
Callie [01:46:55] Yeah, I wouldn’t…
Nichole [01:46:56] So I’ve got to say (laughs).
Callie [01:46:58] I would maybe have more empathy if all those liberals that are just screaming at Bernie supporters and leftists right now that we have to vote for Biden instead of just yelling at us and threatening us with Trump if they were like, listen, we know Biden sucks, we’re fully versed on his track record, we’re gonna be watching that fucker like a hawk. And the minute he gets in office, this is what our plan is. This is how we’re gonna organize a third party. Like we’re going to ask you to do this one more time and then this shit’s over. But like this is what we’re gonna do. This is the protests we’re gonna stage. This is how we’re gonna take care of the homeless and the people that are economically disadvantaged in our communities. Like we’re gonna come together. But you’re not saying any of that. Like you’re not offering any sort of plan. If you were, then maybe I would be more open to your message and I could plug my nose and vote for him to get one fascist out of the office. But you’re not you’re just you’re you’re showing me that everything will go back to normal. That’s literally what Biden’s platform is, is a return to normalcy. And if you think that a return to normalcy is acceptable, then we are not on the same side. And that’s the that’s a problem. It’s like I’m not seeing anything from those people that are just like, oh, but it’s harm reduction. Whose harm are we reducing!?
Nichole [01:48:24] That’s what I’m trying to say. Like you’re just saying, Nyah. But you’re not actually making any kind of a case. And then that’s when people just go, oh, will the Supreme Court, though?
Nichole [01:48:36] Well, what aspect of the Supreme Court? Because Biden’s going to put in people who are extremely big industry and Wall Street big money friendly, corporation friendly. If nothing else, and I have a shocking fact for you.
Nichole [01:48:52] He fucking loves a Supreme Court judge who hates abortion. Yeah. He has supported plenty of people. He calls Scalia a fucking mentor and a good friend. So what are you talking about? He tried to get a person who’s known as a union buster to become a Supreme Court justice. Like, what are you talking about? Where where is the math where Biden comes out as so much of the better lesser of two evils? He has an enormous amount of scale on his side. He has done things that impact the entire country and he has done things that have impacted other entire countries. Where is this math where he ends up with less victims on his side? It doesn’t add up.
Nichole [01:49:42] And to your point, I agree. Like I at least wouldn’t be so fucking furious if these people were coming with some sort of a plan. But then my question would be right back, like, well, then why does it matter who I vote for? Why don’t we just do this plan no matter who it is? Why don’t we all vote Green Party to at least… I still to me, that’s too much of participating in this fucking sham of a system. But like, fine, let’s let let’s let the Democrats and Republicans shit themselves because a third party would be really inconvenient for them. So like why when we bond together to vote third party, get them the 5 percent. And then whoever ends up president, we just do your fucking plan anyway? If we have enough power to move Biden We have enough power to move. Trump. Yeah, that’s it. That’s it. But none of you are coming with that.
Nichole [01:50:32] And I. If I have to hear the phrase hold my nose and vote for XYZ one more time like I. It’s just so gross. Yeah, it is. This is people’s lives you’re talking about.
Callie [01:50:43] Once again, there’s such a lack of like creativity. You know, we just think like, oh, like cause we’ve been so well trained by the media and the government that we’d like don’t really have any say. But the people making these arguments like don’t really acknowledge that. But at the same time, they are. It’s like, oh, the only way we can protect these certain rights is by getting a Democrat in who will put some like fucking neoliberal on the Supreme Court. It’s like, why is that our only way of getting anything done?
Callie [01:51:14] I just don’t I just don’t understand. It’s like we we go into everything like boxing ourselves in. And these are the same people that all tout like Marsha P. Johnson and the Pride Movement and MLK and the Civil Rights movement- like we’ll look at all these things. But then we don’t seem to have this like, oh, well, well, Bernie didn’t win. So I guess this is just what we’re stuck with.
Callie [01:51:36] And it’s like they fuckin threw bricks at cops! Like, where are you all like, where are you all in the like looking at different avenues? You know what I mean? Like, we just are so boxed in to like well if this happens and this happens and if this happens and this happens and there’s really no way to get us anywhere, it’s like that. That is just honestly a limit of our own imagination. Like if you spent all of this energy. Voting, trying to push everyone to vote for Biden when, you know, people loathe him, like what if instead of just even thinking like, well, let’s get to 5 percent on Green Party? Like, what if we all just literally voted someone else in?
Callie [01:52:21] That could even happen. It’s never happened before. But it doesn’t mean it can’t. I just don’t. I just really don’t understand. Why these people that can somehow see our system as broken, but then also think that like working within it will get us anywhere. Solely, right? I mean, I understand people that are like, oh yeah, we need to do a little bit within the system, but like. But that’s where the conversation ends. There’s no after that. So that’s where you lose us. It’s like the system was never going to let us change it. The media, the government, the elite ruling class, the rich, like they were never… Bernie was our one shot in this time in history for someone who was just going to offer a path, he wasn’t even the savior. He was just going to offer us a path for change. He was going to be the person that we would fight with. Right? Who we knew would be sympathetic, like when there are mass strikes or sympathetic to getting us all health care. I had no illusions that he was just going to wave his magic wand and turn us into this like socialist utopia.
Callie [01:53:34] So I just. We just can’t keep gaslighting people into voting against their own interests and then abandoning them and thinking that you have the right to come crawling back and asking us for our vote again. You did it in 2016. You did it in 2000. We’re fucking done. We’ve been doing this now for decades. Literal decades.
Nichole [01:54:02] Yep. Yeah. And I you know, people say stuff like, well, the environment can’t take four more years of Trump. And it’s like, well, it also can’t take four years of Biden. So again, what’s your fucking plan? We have the Green New Deal. It may not go far enough, but at least it’s an organized platform that we can all cite as like an organizing idea. So what’s your fucking plan? Whichever one of these fucking ghouls gets in? What is your plan!? Because we can’t take four years of either of them. Biden hasn’t like F-rating or a D-minus rating from the the Sunrise Movement. His plan is nothing. It’s atrocious. And already during this crisis, people have pushed through pipelines in the United States and we’ve also frozen the Environmental Protection Agency. And I believe China also same thing was like, oh, we’re in a crisis. So we can’t have environmental protection right now. Democrats are signing off on that stuff, too.
Callie [01:55:07] Well, then, didn’t Trump seize like native land like didn’t he actually see?
Nichole [01:55:12] Yeah!
Callie [01:55:13] Where are y’all on any of that?
Nichole [01:55:15] Right. And then you have in Virginia the Democratic, I believe, governor there. So Virginia Lake has the lowest pay of any state. Which is so gross. And so they fought and fight and fight. And we’re training it like $15 minimum wage. They weren’t able to get that, but they finally got… Won an incremental increase in the federal minimum wage or statement of min wage. And they the governor there, who’s a Democrat, just decided that because we’re in a state of emergency, it’s “not the right time” to increase people’s wages. So there’s a freeze on that. And you know that it’s never going to come back. They’re going to have to, like, fight and win it all over again during an emergency where the people making that rate are probably the people who are still having to work. He’s like, no, no, this isn’t the right time to pay you more.
Callie [01:56:14] Yes. The essential workers.
Nichole [01:56:17] And that’s a Democrat. so where are all of you on that? Where are these people? Where’s Elizabeth Warren who’s going to sign off on it in the afternoon and then wake back up the next morning and get back to the fight? Right? On these insufficient bills or these bills that give people’s fucking rights and land and everything else away.
Nichole [01:56:38] Where are you?!
Callie [01:56:40] Again, you had Kamala Harris proposing two hundred (burst into laughter) I can’t even say it without… Two hundred and fifty dollars a month as a stimulus payment, and you had Mitt fucking Romney proposing two thousand dollars. And we’re supposed to be reassured that a Biden presidency will be responsive to people because he’s going to pick a V.P. like Harris. Someone who, by the way, represents the state of California, where two hundred and fifty dollars won’t pay for shit.
Callie [01:57:22] OK. like. Not here!
Nichole [01:57:25] Not anything.
Callie [01:57:28] You have a right wing Republican talking about giving people what amounts to essentially a UBI at $2000 a month, more than some sort of like progressive. And she’s not. But she she’s touted as some sort of progressive firebrand Democrat wanting to give people $250. And I’m supposed to be reassured by a ticket that’s like Biden and Harris??
Callie [01:57:58] Someone who also, by the way, failed to prosecute. I believe it’s Steve Mnuchin, right? (Nichole confirms) It may not be him. And I thought it was him specifically, but and the banking crises, like she she literally declined to prosecute people that were fucking over California residents during the recession. She failed to prosecute, but she did put policies in place to prosecute mothers for their children missing school, because, you know, that’s what we need to do with families that are struggling, as you know, throw their moms in jail.
Nichole [01:58:37] Priorities. You know?
Callie [01:58:41] But I’m supposed to be reassured by that. I’m supposed to trust them to look out for vulnerable communities.
Nichole [01:58:50] But that’s the thing is these people don’t even really say that. That’s what gets to me is like they may start off that way. But then when you say all those things, they’re like, yeah, well…
Nichole [01:59:03] You know? It’s like they know. They just they literally don’t care. And that’s the most that’s why I like I cannot engage in these conversations anymore because it’s like you don’t actually care. You just want your side to win. And you’re willing to use any bullshit argument to get there, like you’re willing to call me privileged. But if we really got down to it, you actually don’t care about people of color.
Nichole [01:59:29] You don’t. You don’t care about poor people. You don’t care about the working class. You just want your guy to win so that you can go back to sleep. And not have to worry about it.
Nichole [01:59:45] Like the DNC, their whole thing was not to get Trump out of the White House. Their number one priority was to not let Bernie win. And exactly like you said before, it wasn’t even about Bernie. It was about socialist ideas, socialist policy, and also showing us that there is no way for us to… In following and using the political system, we have to get these policies in place.
Nichole [02:00:21] They didn’t want us to get excited thinking that we could actually get this through through their channels. Which is short sighted as capitalism always is, because now you’ve put us into a corner where the only way we can get this through through revolution. Violent or otherwise. You know, the only way we’re gonna have a chance is in the very least by striking and shutting this place down and to… Leaning into our power.
Callie [02:00:49] Yeah. They literally the DNC. Risked a Trump presidency to steal health care from you. That’s that. The story should be. They they literally cared less about defeating Trump than they do making sure that you and your loved ones don’t have health care.
Nichole [02:01:15] And do you know why that is? It’s not because they’re evil. They are evil. But that’s not the reason. The reason is because capitalism requires workers to have multiple types of strain and stress that forced them to work. To have to work and to take whatever they can get, it requires that.
Nichole [02:01:43] Callie and I talk about it all the time, it’s Callie’s like genius point is that there’s so much about capitalism and corporate America that when you look at it, it’s actually not the efficient thing. It’s not the thing that benefits a company the most. So you have to say, what’s the real reason under here? Because for all of us to be able to have health care and be healthier, we’d be more productive citizens. Right? We’d be happier. We’d have more flexibility. We could go get jobs that we actually want to have.
Nichole [02:02:12] So you have to say, hmm, that’s weird. Why wouldn’t a country that wants to be productive and rich, you know, making a lot of money, having a lot of productivity, like why wouldn’t it want its citizens to have that? It’s because they need us doing a lot of work that is dangerous and underpaid.
Nichole [02:02:35] It’s the same thing with like universal child care. This country spends bill- it doesn’t spend. This country saves billions and billions and billions of dollars every year from all of the unpaid domestic work that happens. So you can’t give people universal child care because now we have to pay for the thing that we’re right now not having to pay for.
Callie [02:03:01] They have.
Nichole [02:03:02] Then people will have options!
Callie [02:03:03] Yes. They have to keep the threat of starvation and homelessness. Yeah. Hanging over us in order to make us complicit within this system. Because if we did not have that, no one in their right mind would agree to any of this bullshit.
Nichole [02:03:23] No, we wouldn’t agree to a 40 hour workweek. The only reason we agree to that is for health care is for benefits, for paid time off. Right? Because that’s the threshold. You have to go get a full time job at usually 40 hours a week in order to qualify to have those benefits. If those benefits were just provided, you’d be like. No. I could live off 20 hours a week at this rate. So I’ll just do that.
Nichole [02:03:52] And then you’d have time to dream and to organize and to sleep. You’d be healthier and you’d be like, you know what?! This all’s kind of fucked up. Maybe I’m going to do something about this now that I have all this free time and I’m well taken care of. And I know my community and my neighbors better. And I can connect with other people because now we’re not competing with each other. No, they can’t have that. They can’t have that. So for you to come to me and talk to me about how we’re gonna how we’re going to (scoffs) work within a fucking rigged electoral system and also capitalism, and you’re not providing any kind of revolutionary solution to any of this. Get the fuck out of my face. Do whatever the fuck you want with your vote. I really don’t care. But like, don’t talk to me until so you have some awareness of how corrupt this is and how there’s no way we’re going to fix anything by working with within their rules. Cause we’re not. We’re not. And people like me know that.
Nichole [02:05:00] And I- my favorite thing that happens and I mean this very sarcastically, is posting about, you know, revolution or whatever. And someone was like, you couldn’t even get people to come out and vote for Bernie. So, like, how are you gonna get them to participate in a revolution? And, you know, I fired back some like, go fuck yourself response. (Callie laughs) And then they were like, oh, you’re not going to be able to organize it. Like, this isn’t good outreach. Like, you’re not talking to me in a way to make me want to join your movement.
Nichole [02:05:39] And it was like you actually fucking think, you piece of shit, that you don’t have to earn my vote, first of all, but I have to earn your participation in a revolution. Get the fuck out of here. That’s not how this works. OK.
Callie [02:05:59] Please, sir, can you get your boot off my fucking neck? I’d be ever so grateful. Get out of here!
Nichole [02:06:08] Yeah, I’m sure in France they tell like pause from sharpening my guillotines to be like, oh, we need to go talk to the middle class about why they should support us and let them water down our message and our tactics. Right?
Callie [02:06:21] Well, and we need a lot less support to fuck some shit up in a revolution than we do to fuckin somehow take back any sort of control over this system that is literally designed to disenfranchise and disempower us like. The fuckin politeness politics of having to beg people for any sort of like safety or security or it’s just it’s so gross to me.
Speaker [02:06:53] It’s it’s.
Callie [02:06:56] How can you live with yourself like you’re literally going to deny someone autonomy or freedom just because you’re uncomfortable with their tone or tactics and you think you’re a good guy in this situation?
Nichole [02:07:14] And they really do.
Callie [02:07:15] They really do. They think they can…
Nichole [02:07:20] That’s what makes me violently angry.
Callie [02:07:20] Right. They think just because they have a hashtag resist in their Twitter bio…
Nichole [02:07:24] Oh my god (rolls eyes).
Callie [02:07:28] (bursts out laughing) I love your face!
Callie [02:07:31] You know, that that they’re any sort of ally. And they’re same people, though, that could like engage in some sort of conversation about why probably kneeling during the anthem was too too disruptive or rude.
Nichole [02:07:48] (in “white girl” voice) Or you just have to have the right tone. You know? If you like, want to get people on your side, you have to like, watch your tone and you have to, like, put up with all their bad faith arguments. And I’m going to sit here and pretend like you actually could get through to me, but I know that I would never let you. But I’m still going to police your tone.
Callie [02:08:05] Oh, yeah!
Nichole [02:08:05] And then when you call me out on not wanting to talk to me because you know that I’m doing a bad faith argument and that I will never actually change my opinion, then I can just blame you for not for being rude to me and shutting me down. I can call you patronizing. I got called patronizing. This week, too, is really fun. By someone who was being patronizing to me and then said I was patronizing for standing up for why I believe the thing that I believe because I was violently imposing my beliefs on them, even though that’s what they were doing to me.
Nichole [02:08:43] And I wasn’t actually. See this is what people don’t get to. And this is what happened with the Bernie. I mean, the Bernie Bros thing was fake, but then people who bought into it. What people misunderstand is like aggressively and violently standing up for your own beliefs vs. trying to change someone else’s. There is a world of difference between those two things. You come up and you attack me for what I believe. I’m going to aggressively stand up for what I believe, especially in this. There’s times when I could be like, hey, I don’t know. You know, I’m open to other ideas. But like with this, like I’ve done the research, there’s very deep and well-thought out reasons that I have the opinion I have. And you’re coming and you’re shaming me and you’re making fun of me for having the beliefs that I have. So if I pop back at you with a bunch of facts and maybe yeah I tell you to go fuck yourself, I’m not being a bully. You’re being a bully because you’re trying to shame me into what you want me to think even if it’s not in my own best interests. Yeah. That’s fucking bullying. That’s fucking violent.
Callie [02:09:53] Well, and you’re using the whole fucking apparat- like they don’t see that. It’s not just like a one to one exchange. They have the whole apparatus of like the mainstream media and the dominant culture and are like cishet white capitalist, patriarchal, like all the things, you know on their side repeating these narratives over and over. You don’t I mean.
Nichole [02:10:17] Yeah, like I’m already triggered as fuck, frankly, by this whole like Biden’s entire existence and the mainstream media treatment of him. And then like so I’m already dealing with just this constant feeling. I mean, Bernie’s endorsement of him. I knew was coming. It hit me way harder than I was like expected. And I honestly like I can’t even look at Bernie anymore. I’m just done.
Nichole [02:10:39] And then you have someone in some shitlib coming up in my face trying to, like, yell at me for the opinion that I have. And like, that’s a perfect way to put it. It’s not even just you. Which is bad enough, but it’s what you represent. And knowing like the full weight of the majority is behind you. And I’m already just feeling just so fucking. Oppressed. I mean, honestly.
Nichole [02:11:11] And for so many other people, too, just knowing that, like you represent how most people think and feel. I have minority support right, like I don’t have a bunch people to have my back on stuff. And you’re trying to elect somebody who’s just going to do all these things and you don’t care.
Nichole [02:11:32] You don’t care about Tara Reade. You don’t care about the seven other women who have come forward. You don’t care about all the little girls that we can go watch compilations of him touching inappropriately.
Callie [02:11:43] Which, by the way, is assault. Can people start reading fucking definitions of things people are like, oh, look, even when you were ment-.
Nichole 02:11:52 Well don’t go wild now.
Callie [02:11:53] No! Like when you mentioned too much earlier about like how The New York Times was like, oh, but there’s also like allegations of inappropriate touching. It’s like read the fucking definition that sexual assault and penetrating someone without their consent is fucking rape. That’s not me exaggerating or using harsh language to try to shock you. That’s literally the legal definition by the Department of Justice as what rape is. It’s the penetration, no matter how slight by any part, by any object, whether it’s a body part or a foreign object into someone else’s body. It’s fuckin rape. Like, I’m tired of people being like, oh, well, he’s just like touching people inappropriately. It’s like that’s sexual assault.
Nichole [02:12:42] Right.
Callie [02:12:44] It’s so frustrating.
Nichole [02:12:46] The violence in that statement. That’s what I’m talking about like that. That’s what me and so many other people are dealing with… So many people. Is the inherent and constant subtle violence of people saying things like, well, “he just.” Or this XYZ behavior doesn’t count towards anything.
Nichole [02:13:12] (Sighs heavily) Well, I had more of this thing to read. We got off on a whole whole thing.
Nichole [02:13:22] But I did want to finish this up because there is more really good information here. So I’ll just finish this and then I don’t know if you have more to say. I feel like I could close out.
Nichole [02:13:33] So this person said: “the public is being told to distance themselves and was originally told not to wear masks, despite all of us knowing it would help reduce the spread of disease. They told you this because hospitals didn’t have enough masks and they wanted people to save mass for us. We’re also having visitors steal our supplies. Many hospitals are having this issue.” People are trash. “So that’s also why the public was told not to wear masks. You’re now being told to wear homemade masks. They won’t really work. They probably don’t really slow the spread. But this is just me speculating based on the differences of materials used with cotton masks versus surgical masks. You’re also not being told that this can spread through contact because the virus is present in stool.
Nichole [02:14:20] You’re also not being told that the virus is causing sudden cardiac death in people who are not sick enough to be admitted to the hospital. Yes, 19 year olds, 50 year olds. No prior cardiac history are dropping dead suddenly because the virus attacks and damages heart muscle.
Nichole [02:14:38] You’re not being told that all of us work in the hospitals, are working and rotating, on COVID19 units that were still being forced to show up to work, even if we test positive. We’re still working with you. If I’m not running a temp above 101 Fahrenheit and don’t have shortness of breath but test positive, guess what? I’m your nurse today, Mr. Sick cancer patient. I can’t refuse an assignment because that’s patient abandonment and every other nurse here has COVID19 too behalf of us are untested because that might mean we would need time off. We only get tested once we’re short of breath or running high fevers or fainting during our shifts.
Nichole [02:15:16] Oh, and the tests most of us are using currently has a 60 to 70 percent accuracy. So who the fuck really knows if we actually have it and are just getting false negatives?
Nichole [02:15:27] Most importantly, no one is being told about the range of symptoms being seen with COVID19. The CDC says shortness of breath, cough and fever. Here’s what we’re actually seeing in positive pace patients. Besides those three symptoms, elevated heart rates, chest pain and mimicking of heart attack symptoms, diarrhea, nausea, extreme fatigue, headaches, muscle and joint pain, loss of smell, loss of taste, dizziness and confusion. People are having a range of symptoms and not everyone is getting a fever or shortness of breath. Just about everyone has a dry cough and fatigue.
Nichole [02:16:05] So short answer the speed and direction of the virus is affected as you breathe- breathe, cough and sneeze. The mask stops or slows these things directly. Coming out of the body when something is floating through, the air can easily pass through the sides of the mask. Can a cough or sneeze, sneeze or breath pass through the sides of your mask? Yes. But the majority of that speed direction propels most of it into the mask’s fabric.
Nichole [02:16:32] So that’s it. We’re all being lied to.
Callie [02:16:35] I…
Nichole [02:16:35] How fun.
Callie [02:16:36] Had no whole idea about a lot of that.
Nichole [02:16:41] Mm hmm.
Callie [02:16:43] There’s just so much that like. That we’re taking on faith or that we’re we just don’t know. Like even even me, I’m guilty of it. I’ve had a lot of conversations with, you know, people recently where we’re talking about like, oh, we think that like over summer we’re gonna be able to, like, lighten the restrictions and then we’ll probably have to go back into court. Like, we don’t really know that. Like we don’t know that it’s gonna get better over summer and that we’re gonna get a break from quarantining. Like we don’t know.
Callie [02:17:13] We also, like don’t even know yet that. And I’ve read a lot of articles talking about this. Like we don’t know for sure that people who have it are then immune. Yeah, that’s a big thing that I’m concerned about because they keep talking about like, oh, well, maybe if a lot of people get it, but then like don’t die from it, which like first of all, that’s fucking terrible. We don’t have the resources to like take care of a mass amount of people getting it. But even then, like we don’t know that they’ll actually be immune from getting it again.
Nichole [02:17:44] Yeah. They were saying that they may not be immune and that it’s unlikely, but it’s possible that it could even be worse the second time. Maybe something like chicken pox. You know, where like, you’re not supposed to get it again. But if you do, it’s like pretty bad.
Nichole [02:18:05] Yeah. We just don’t know anything. That’s the problem. And there’s not an effort being made to, I don’t want to say there’s an effort being made to find out. But like there’s a lot of barriers being put up to actually understanding the reality of the situation and communicating that.
Callie [02:18:26] Well there is an incentive by even your beloved mainstream media sources to to downplay how bad this is or to like delay information, because they want to make sure it’s like they want everyone to, like, not panic or they want things to be reopened. I mean, a lot of us, like, don’t want to be trapped in our fuckin houses if we’re lucky enough to be able to stay from home. We want an end in sight. We want to know that we’re gonna be able to like get to go back out and not get sick. And so ideas that like, hey, we maybe don’t know that people will be immune if they’ve already gotten it or if they seem to have the antibodies like we don’t know that or hey, we like. Yeah, most people are gonna be fine if they get it. Like there is a delay on like, hey, guess what, you may actually have permanent lung scarring from this or you may just drop fucking dead like that’s a thing I hadn’t heard. We just don’t we just don’t know and. We can’t. I don’t want to like fearmonger and I don’t want to come off like a conspiracy theorist, like we just have to be cautious. We cannot just trust these sources. We have to fact check. We have to like listen and try to take in as much information as possible. And if something doesn’t pass the smell test then like don’t just share it. I mean, the mask thing is a perfect example. They were literally telling people that it’s silly to wear a mask, that mass will incite panic and that we don’t need them. And now we all need fuckin masks! You’re not even supposed to go out. There are certain counties in California where you are not legally allowed to go out without masks on. So it’s like I just. We just can’t trust them to have our best interests at heart. In the same way that we wouldn’t trust them in other ways, too, I don’t know why we think that. Like because there is this some sort of crisis that somehow they become more trustworthy.
Callie [02:20:28] And I know people are like, oh, that this crisis is really pulling back the curtain on like how much they really don’t care about us. And you have people on the media talking about how, like, grandparents are willing to die to save the money for their grandkids. And like, how brutal and gross is that? And it’s like, yes, I agree. That’s fucking disgusting and deeply disturbing that these people are just willing to say that. But tell me again how that’s much different than arguing against rising Social Security payments or raising the minimum wage or how we have to accept that some people just are homeless and that they’re a drain on the system. Like it’s really not much different. They’re also still calling for people to be disposable and that it’s fine that they die or that it’s fine that they’re suffering. It’s just now in this other way that it’s a way that can impact people who normally wouldn’t have to worry about that. That it seems so grotesque. But we’ve always had our politicians and anchors on TV basically saying that it’s fine that certain group of people die and that there are acceptable losses, that there are acceptable losses that half a million people in Iraq and Afghanistan were murdered by us. All for the greater good of somehow protecting us from terrorists. Like I just. I’m glad that this is pulling back the curtain on how gross our system is. But I’m like concerned that more people aren’t realizing that it was always like this.
Nichole [02:22:07] Yeah. Yeah. It’s really… Exhausting. Yeah. Like emotionally exhausting to just feel like the masks are off! And you all are still participating in it! Instead of screaming in horror, you know, you’re like they’re not even trying to hide it. And you all are still just screaming about who we should vote for to continue the farce?
Callie [02:22:41] Right.
Callie [02:22:44] I um, I was listening to. I think we’ve mentioned this before. But I was listening to thought slimes video on rent. And it was a really, really incredible video on it. I highly recommend if you haven’t already listened to it. But one of the things that they said on that episode that has really stuck with me is that every person. And I’m not directly quoting, but every person who dies of exposure has been murdered. Like every person who has gotten sick because they don’t have health care, they can’t afford to go to the doctor or has died because they’re homeless or can’t afford to eat, has been murdered. And politicians and media and all of these people that are trying to tell us that the system is fine. It’s not really any different than that. Lieutenant governor from Texas saying that grandparents are willing to die to save the economy. It’s the same thing. They’re being murdered by a system that does not care about us.
Nichole [02:23:53] Yeah, and I mean, to an extent, a large extent, needs that, right, to act as the cautionary tale for everyone else.
Callie [02:24:05] Yes!!!!!
Nichole [02:24:10] Yeah, well, that was fun.
Callie [02:24:15] You know, just a nice light, breezy, very on brand.
Nichole [02:24:24] Yep, yep, yeah. There was something I wanted to mention this week…
Nichole [02:24:31] We will be doing an advice episode pretty soon. I realized we never really explained, I don’t think the change in format. Initially we had done news advice and then whatever the main topic was, but we found that the episodes were too long. As you can see. So what we’re gonna do is we still want to do advice and we still want to collect it. But we’re just going to occasionally pile up a pile up enough to occasionally just steal whole advice episodes. We love doing those. They end up being a lot of fun and we end up getting into a lot of really interesting topics. So I just wanted to ask if you have ever have any questions you want us to answer on the show or it doesn’t even have to be advice necessarily. It could be about like a conceptual topic you want to find out more about. It can be really anything send it to firstname.lastname@example.org and we can collect all of those there. So I just wanted to. I know we’ve gotten a few from the first few episodes or promoting that and then we kind of stopped doing the segment. But I just wanted to put it out there that we are still collecting them and will use them for content in the future.
Callie [02:25:46] Since our news kind of bled right into our main topic and just made one ginormous conversations instead of different segments, I will be gracious and offer to close out with your jokes since we kind of skipped it.
Nichole 02:26:04 Yes.
Nichole [02:26:05] All right. I was going to suggest it, but I didn’t want to push my luck (Callie laughs).
Nichole [02:26:12] So I actually came up with this joke somewhat off of a meme that I saw. It was just a visual joke. So I had to, like, come up with an actual verbal joke around it. What do you call a deer who really, really likes pickles?
Callie [02:26:29] I don’t know.
Nichole [02:26:31] A dildo.
Callie [02:26:38] I love when you don’t get it you have this, like open, inquisitive look on your face and then when you do get it, it just is instant anger.
Nichole [02:26:48] Wow. Wow. Wow.
Callie [02:26:52] Okay.
Callie [02:26:56] Well, I’ll just close out by saying I hope that that’s just if if you already agree with us on all of this, then I hope this was cathartic and inspiring. And if you don’t, then I really hope that you really took in what we said and will consider it and at least we’ll stop badgering the people in your life who see the problems with the system and no longer want to participate in it. I hope this gave you something to consider, because I know Nichole, you said, which I completely understand, it’s very anarchist of you that you don’t care how people vote and you just want someone, the people to stop badgering the rest of us. But like I I do care. I really think I don’t want to force anyone into doing things they don’t want to do, obviously. But I do want to try to reach people that if you are going to factor in electoral politics as part of your overall strategy, then I think we need to start seriously talking about how we fix the system and that it’s not just voting. It’s like what are we going to do about the Electoral College? What are we going to do about voter suppression? What are we going to do about redlining? Like what are we going to do about the fact that we have only really two party options that we can pick from, and both of them are for the elite class, like we have to do something about that. So I really do encourage third party votes.
Nichole [02:28:23] Yeah. And I think it’s a very valid option. I think for me my biggest priority with voting is they would say, I do think people… I think people who would vote any way, you know, I’m not saying this necessarily to people who are like protesting by not voting, but people who are engaged in like want to vote. I think still going and voting down ballot is a really good thing to do right now. I don’t believe in this system and I don’t want to work within it. However, it is true that local and state politicians arguably have a bigger impact on your day to day life and even things like how they respond to a crisis like this. So I do think continuing to participate in those elections are still pretty important until we get something else in place that’s better.
Nichole [02:29:22] I could be wrong, I feel like the fraud in those elections isn’t as much. But I also know that, like, that’s not always the case. So anyway, just I do think that that’s something worth doing. And if you’re going to go and vote, then I think at that point for the presidential campaign, you can you can decide what is the most powerful thing I could do here? Is it vote for Biden? Is it write in Bernie? Is it vote Green Party? You know, and like I think that that’s a discussion worth having. I would be open to having it on the show at some point. Like what do each one of those options mean and like how people make that decision for themselves. But yeah, I would say that down ballot voting is really important. You know, for instance, I mean, our governor in California has not done as much as I would have liked in terms of really like freezing all utilities, freezing rent and mortgages and stuff like that in the aggressive way that I would have liked.
Nichole [02:30:26] But we certainly have had a better response here than like, say, in New York. And are your governor can protect you from a lot of stuff that the federal government does or doesn’t do. So those elections can matter. You just don’t always have a good option. A lot of times you’re still in this, you know, you might be stuck with like two bad options. But yeah. And you know, there is a person running opposing Nancy Pelosi who’s a progressive. Like I…it would be fucking amazing to get her out of power. That would be a big deal. So I’m OK, like smartly continuing to participate. I just don’t like the idea of participation in lieu of or in replacement of doing something more radical. And I also fully support people who are like, I’m just not doing any of it like participating in this system. I totally get that too.
Callie [02:31:22] Yeah. Yeah. I just think, ah, you know, we keep fighting over the same small group of people, one really like have only half the country votes. We have one of the lowest participation rates in the world compared to like other countries, like Western countries like ours. So we just keep all screaming at the same group of people about like how they’re voting and not engaging a massive amount of people that we could be pulling in if we were actually offering them something. So yeah, but but I agree. Down-ballot is extremely important and even state and local mean we’re seeing even on city levels how like you’re, like my my mom is living in a city who’s their leadership has not been good throughout this and it’s been really hard for her. Like they’re they’re making a lot of risky choices and it’s impacting her health and her literal day to day life of whether or not she can, like, leave her home even to, like, take her dog out. And so it is it is really important. Local, local leadership.
Callie [02:32:37] So. Yeah.
Callie [02:32:41] All right, y’all. Well, we will talk to you next week.
Nichole [02:32:45] Bye bye.