We’ve had big revelations in the last few weeks and we’re ready to talk about discovering that we’re on the spectrum (Nichole) and have ADHD (Callie) We learned that these are both WAY under-diagnosed in people assigned female at birth because the science was based on the male brain. We have a lot to say about all this, and we hope it might help others realize things about themselves or their loved ones!
- Autism vs ADHD (The Difference between ADHD and Autism Spectrum Disorder) | Asperbergers from the Inside (YouTube)
- Why Is It So Hard to Do Something That Should Be Easy? | How to ADHD (YouTube)
- ADHD in Girls: How to Recognize the Symptoms | How to ADHD (YouTube)
- 7 Signs of Autism in Men (DSM-5 Symptoms of Autism/Aspergers in High Functioning Autistic Adults) | Asperbergers from the Inside (YouTube)
- Autism symptoms in GIRLS | Yo Samdy Sam (YouTube)
- Autism: It’s Different in Girls. | Scientific American
- Why is ADHD Missed in Girls? | BBC
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Nichole [00:00:27] Hey, everyone, I’m autistic.
Callie [00:00:33] And I’m ADHD.
Nichole [00:00:38] Callie and I are just perpetually coming out. So here we are yet again, new identities discovered here to represent neurodiversity.
Callie [00:00:49] Yeah. And coming to it later in life, that’s going to be a big part of our discussion today. And just the kind of fuckery that happens when you don’t get told by any experts.
Nichole [00:01:02] Yeah. And you get to just think that you’re a fucking loser your whole life and things are just hard for you for no reason. And you just need to try harder and then you’ll be better.
Callie [00:01:13] Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Nichole [00:01:17] Were you recording? Because I wasn’t.
Callie [00:01:22] No.
Nichole [00:01:25] OK. Let’s maybe do that.
Callie [00:01:33] Oh my god. Oh my god. I could not believe that. OK, recording now.
Nichole [00:01:40] Recording now. All right, there we go. That’s the stuff. We’re getting comments of people being like yep.
Callie [00:01:50] Oh my god.
Nichole [00:01:51] Not a huge shock.
Callie [00:01:55] Totes profesh.
Nichole [00:01:58] We’re so profesh.
Callie [00:01:59] So profesh.
Nichole [00:01:59] It’s very hard going in between the, um, the Thursday live stream and this live stream cause that one we don’t record separately. So it’s like, easy to get, I kind of forget which one we’re doing half the time.
Callie [00:02:11] Mhmm.
Nichole [00:02:11] Yeah. So.
Callie [00:02:16] Whisky breakfast.
Nichole [00:02:17] Hey, everybody. Not today.
Callie [00:02:21] Yeah, not today.
Nichole [00:02:22] Not today. Yeah I got super early today and then somehow still was like scrambling at the last minute, but…
Callie [00:02:32] Always. My life is perpetually scrambling at the last minute. Like, that’s just, if I was going to be buried, that would be on my headstone.
Nichole [00:02:43] Is that a sign?
Callie [00:02:44] Yeah. It’s a real big one.
Nichole [00:02:46] Yeah. So really what we had, what we want to talk about today, obviously we’re not medical professionals, so we’re not here to like necessarily educate directly on neurodivergence and, you know, autism and ADHD. But in the last few weeks, we have each realized that we are these things. And in that learning, we’ve discovered a lot about how, why it’s very underdiagnosed in people assigned female at birth. And also, we’ve just had a lot of, frankly, like righteous anger at looking back on our entire lives and, you know, just the way that, like, we can see even more clearly that the world is not designed for neurodivergent people. So we just wanted to kind of like have a free-flowing conversation. We will, like, give you some information along the way and I would love to talk about, like, what things clicked for me to make me realize that I was autistic because I really never thought that I was. And a lot of it’s because there’s such bad representation of the actual spectrum of autism and what it looks like for a lot of people. So.
Callie [00:04:07] Absolutely.
Nichole [00:04:08] I know you were full of righteous fury. Do you want to start off with your dragon breath of feelings?
Callie [00:04:18] I, no. No, I think I’d like you to start if that’s OK. I need to warm up a bit.
Nichole [00:04:26] Alright. So I’m not sure like where to start, I have so many thoughts, it’s like hard for me to get them in order, but… So, first of all, I just want to say right now, I’ve already put a ton of resources in the description box of this video. So you’ll see there that there’s videos that really helped both Callie and I. The one that helped us kind of get on this path… So we both came to the fact that we might be these things separately. But there is this one video called Autism versus ADHD that like really, I think for both of us, really cemented that we’re like, OK, wow. Like, this is really true.
Nichole [00:05:08] And it was interesting because it was comparing and contrasting the two. But I know when I watched it, I saw it first and I was like holy, I had that like cold, like almost out of body feeling watching it, that I was like, this guy is talking about my entire life. And then I also, for the autistic part, and then for the ADHD part, I was like, oh my god, this is so much of like what Callie has told me that she’s felt for years or things that I like have observed in her. So I knew she was already kind of looking into it and so I sent her the video and then we both each ended up finding channels that we really liked about our respective neurologies. And we’re sharing videos back and forth. So put all of the ones that we thought were super helpful in the description box. And I think particularly helpful was the videos around how these things present differently in female brains and in like people assigned female at birth.
Nichole [00:06:14] And so then that drove me to kind of do a little bit more research. And I found these articles that talked about how, like for autism, specifically Asperger, who came up, you know, kind of created the, he didn’t created it, he like discovered and like put a name to the situation. He literally had framed this whole theory around extremities of the male intelligence. So everything he did was based around the male brain. And so it wasn’t up until I found an article from about four years ago where they started to do research of, they were like, oh, jeez, I think we actually, like that women might have different symptoms here or different signs of this here. So they started doing research and finding out that like everything, every assumption they had made about how an autistic brain works was not accurate for a female brain. So they’re like, fuck, you know, like this whole thing is wrong. And I read an estimate that they say like right now, it’s diagnosed in boys to girls 16:1 and they think that the proper ratio is more like 3:1. So there’s a lot of fucking people out there that are undiagnosed. And what’s really common is for people to…
Nichole [00:07:46] Are you there, Callie? You’re frozen. All right. She’ll be back. So it’s really common for women or people conditioned female to be treated for other things. So to be treated for something like, say, depression, when really what they’re struggling with is being autistic in a world that is not, you know, accessible for us. And that just really mirrored my experience. Ever since high school I’ve been treated for depression, I was put on different medications and I hated them. None of them made me feel better. They all made me feel really bad. I struggled with eating disorders. So autistic women have eating disorders at way higher rates than the total population. And I have just noticed that, like, there’s just so many things that make sense now from when I was a kid. Like feeling that, you know, I was different from everybody and not really understanding, like, why I felt so different.
Nichole [00:08:54] And my mom used to say that I would like, creep her out and that I was like this weird alien baby. And I just remember, like, starting to go to school and like, the other kids were just. Like, I just couldn’t understand them, they just seemed very immature to me and very loud and like, unpredictable and I just really didn’t feel much of a connection to other kids at all. I ended up skipping first grade, and even then I still felt that sense around my classmates. Like even though I was at least a year younger than everyone else, I still felt like they were, like, immature and loud and I just didn’t really… I wasn’t like hated or anything, but I just really wasn’t interested in bonding with people very much. And my mom used to come to me and be like, hey, kids from the neighborhood want to play with you. And I’m like, no, I’m good. And she’s like, are you sure? And I’m like, Yeah, I’m good. And I would just always be off in a corner by myself doing things and not bothered.
Nichole [00:09:59] So anyway, I was, it just… But I always had this sense that, like other people, were a bit of a mystery to me. And I know that I’ve spent so much energy over my life like decoding people and figuring out the formula to small talk and figuring out the formula to meeting new people and being likable and being charming and while on one hand, obviously, I’m glad that I have those skills now, on the other hand, I’m starting, part of my deep fury right now is understanding how much I sacrificed to spend an inordinate amount of energy doing those things because the world wasn’t going to accept me the way I was. And I have lost out on a lot. Even though I can be charming to people, I often don’t have like a lot of friends who are there who will like… I don’t know, it’s weird like people like me, but I don’t really feel like I have people to call on for stuff. Or like I just left my job and I was really well-liked at my job, but like, nobody showed up for my happy hour. Do you know what I mean?
Nichole [00:11:08] So there’s this weird sense that I’m like getting by and achieving. But there’s something foundationally missing there where at the end of the day, I still don’t really have people like show up. And I’m always very confused and hurt by it. But then I also don’t want to show that. So I just, like, keep it to myself. And I just think, well, fuck it. I don’t really need anybody anyway. Typical. I’m autistic and a Scorpio, so I’m a fucking lot. OK? I’m a fucking lot.
Nichole [00:11:45] And then there’s just stuff like even this, you know, the current situation that we’re in. YouTube doesn’t like certain keywords there, but I have been fine and I’ve really been like feeling weird about it. Like I’m like, is there something wrong with me? Like, why am I OK now going months without, like really seeing anybody or hanging out with anyone? I’m like, literally fine. I could probably spend the rest of my life in this tiny apartment and be like, perfectly happy. And so I’ve been like. Am I okay? Like, what is wrong with me? And, you know, now I realize I think a big part of all of this is that often people on the spectrum are really happy to be alone because they have to expend so much energy all the time when they’re around other people that it just feels like a big break and you just feel like you can be yourself and then you can put your energy towards other things. And I’ve definitely been feeling that way during, you know, our current situation.
Nichole [00:12:54] And so this for me was really validating of just experiences I’ve had in my life, kind of made sense of them. I don’t view it as a disability. I think, honestly, everything I’ve learned about autism like is literally the things that I’ve always thought make me who I am. I’m proud of it. That’s not to, like, undercut that, you know, that other people might have had a harder time, you know, might have more severe… I hate calling them like, symptoms because that’s not how I think of it. But they might have a more severe condition or less support that makes it more difficult for them. But at the same time, like I so clearly see now, even more so, like obviously we’ve talked about ableism for a long time, but I can even more clearly see now the ways in which our world is just like violent against people with a different, you know, brain. And how much conditioning goes in, how much social pressure there is and how much you pick up on that, even as a small child that you need to figure out how to, like, mask, you know, it’s called masking, how to mask and like seem normal to other people for survival.
Nichole [00:14:09] Like, you pick that up as a little kid. And I used to be like very, very gifted. You know, I used to be an extremely bright kid. And I, now I like, struggle for my words. And I have a hard time reading. And there’s a lot of stuff that is just hard for me that used to be easy and enjoyable. And I just wonder honestly how much my chronic illness and how much of my, like, loss of capacity is from years, decades now, of expending all of my energy. And, you know, sadly, being drawn to careers where I need to really pull on this ability to like read other people, give them what they want. Crack the code of communication. So, yeah, I’m like, holy shit. And it’s making me feel like I will be able to better advocate for myself and I’ll be able to probably pick better projects. And, you know, this is what it is. I do like doing it a lot so I don’t want to not do it. But I think it’ll give me the ability to just understand what my limits are.
Nichole [00:15:23] Because before I always thought, like, I should be good at this. Why am I not good at this? There’s something, not there’s something wrong with me, like, oh, my brain works differently and that’s, it’s just never gonna be easy for me. But more like I should try harder. I should practice more. I need to keep pushing because, like, I should be good at this. And now I can see very clearly that, like, there’s just some shit that’s always gonna be a struggle. And now I’ll be more empowered because I won’t feel like it’s a lack on my part, like a lack of effort. I’ll understand that like, that is actually going to be a tremendous amount of effort and it’s still not going to probably be what you want it to be. So is it worth probably having burnout and fatigue after to do that thing, or could your energy be better spent somewhere else? So sorry, that was all over the place and I talked a lot.
Callie [00:16:14] No, no. That was all great. That’s what this episode is for! It’s just us kind of processing all of this and explaining some things and probably being validating to other people. Listen, we don’t need to follow anyone else’s script. Yeah, no, I am, I’m really glad you shared all of that. And I feel like there’s so many directions that I could go with this but I really wanted to talk about, I really wanted to talk about you like feeling bad, like the shame that you feel at like some things are just going to be, like, hard for you and stuff. And it just, I think one of the biggest revelations that I’ve had since realizing I most likely have ADHD is that I am this part…
Callie [00:17:12] So, like I’m obviously very anticapitalist. We have been raging about capitalism now for years on the show and talking about the like culture of grinding and burning yourselves out and how, you know, corporate culture is toxic and all of this stuff. And it’s just been really apparent to me recently how much, even knowing all of those things and even being able to so clearly see the way in which like our society through capitalism, or vice versa, forces us to kind of have this bootstrap mentality, I mean, how many times have we joked about the bootstrap mentality? You know what I mean, and this whole like, you need to just pick yourself up by your bootstraps and just make it happen. And I’m a person who also has been very open about the fact that I’ve struggled with disordered eating my whole life and how I can clearly, like I can, I could probably write a whole dissertation on how willpower is, like, bullshit, right? Like, it’s like this whole…
Callie [00:18:13] So all of these like individual pieces, and yet I still never really stopped and didn’t really realize until finding out that I’m, that I have ADHD, that I was still applying all of those things to like myself internally, you know? Like that the fact that I struggled with work tasks and work schedules that other people seemed to be able to do. Like the fact that I really have, as much as I love the freedom of having a work from home job and I cannot imagine going back into a corporate environment, I really struggled with that. And not just like, oh I’ve struggled to adjust, like it is like a constant struggle. And the kind of work that I’ve done in therapy with, like, trying to get like patterns and routines and just honestly, like getting on a sleep schedule that isn’t like full like vampire, like staying up until, like all night and then going to bed and then waking up late in the day and then like drinking coffee at five p.m. because that’s my morning time. Like it’s a fucking mess, you know?
Callie [00:19:25] And all of these things that I’ve had a hard time with and I’ve talked to other people about it and everyone’s like, yeah, I mean, that stuff is hard. It’s like all of us can have a night where we like up bingeing Netflix, right, even though we know we should be going to bed and that we’re gonna be paying for it tomorrow. And that’s certainly true. But like, are you doing it all the time? Because I’m doing it all the time. You know, it’s like all these things that I’m doing, I struggle with all the time. And I’ve inflicted so much like pain internally and shame and really negative like emotions about how, like, I just must be really lazy and I need to hide the fact that I’m, like, lazier than the people around me. And like that I can’t seem to do what they need to be able, that I need to be able to do and that other people seem to be able to do easily, you know?
Callie [00:20:17] And we can play it off as jokes. We can joke about like not adulting well, and all of this stuff. But it’s been deeply painful for me to, like, not really understand why I have struggled the way I have as like this person who is in my thirties, I should be fully able, right? Like, I should be fully able to easily manage myself in a way that feels like on a day to day basis, like I can be counted on. By others and by myself and to not really ever feel that way has hurt a lot. And I didn’t really realize how much I was still thinking internally about willpower and I just was like calling it something else, you know, like I could see willpower for my dieting and like eating, disordered eating patterns. Like I could clearly see how willpower is not the answer. Right, it’s like you can’t just, like, bootstrap your way through eating problems. That does not work.
Callie [00:21:21] And I could clearly see how capitalism was forcing us to put ourselves on routines and schedules and workloads that are unnatural and painful and cause trauma and that this society makes us sick in so many ways. And I never really stopped to analyze the fact that yet in my head, I was still living in a willpower mentality, like I could just willpower myself into an appropriate sleep schedule and willpower myself into staying on top of my email inbox, you know? And finding out that I am neurodivergent and my brain just works differently and that’s why I have struggled so hard, has been like unbelievably cathartic and yet, like, unbelievably enraging. You know, like I feel like I could laugh right now and also, like, cry my fucking eyes out, like at the just emotional release of it all.
Callie [00:22:24] Because, like, how did I not know earlier, how did no one else know earlier? You know?
Nichole [00:22:31] Well yeah, that’s what makes me the most mad. Like, at least for me, I can have, I’m obviously enraged at the institution, but I can understand how it would be harder for someone to diagnose me older, you know, as like an adult or even a teenager because by then, I mean, like I said, even as a little kid, I started masking, like, very young. So it’s really hard to get diagnosed as an adult. And so I can kind of understand. But like for you, I’m just so angry at your therapist, and that’s probably unfair, but like you literally were saying all the things. And that’s what is so hard because even for me, I’ve had so many times where I’m like, oh, I had a good day. Like I went to bed early last night and I got up early today and I, like, got things done, but it never sticks. It’s never a permanent thing. You know, it’s always easily knocked off. And then it takes me so long to recover. And I think the reasons for that for us might be different but I think the struggle of that is the same.
Nichole [00:23:43] And I’ve often very much thought the same things, like why can’t I adult? Why can’t I, like, get on a routine? What is wrong with me? And just felt really immature and felt really ashamed. You know, and it’s a big part of why I insist on living alone. Because like, I’ve had people judge my lack of routine. I’ve had people judge the things I need to do to, like, cope with life, honestly. And I just can’t, I already have other people’s voices in my head all the time, like, I can’t come home and like, I can like feel someone from the other room judging me. You know?
Callie [00:24:24] Yeah.
Nichole [00:24:25] Like, if I’m getting a second late-night snack or I’ve been playing video games for a few hours or whatever it is, like I can just like feel other people judging it and I can’t handle it. It’s like oh my god. And yeah so anyway. I just, when you realize that, like cause you had seen a list, I think on Tik-Tok right, of symptoms, and that was what first made you-
Callie [00:24:53] Yeah. Listen. No more criticism of Tik-Tok, OK? Not only are people learning important things about themselves, whether it’s their sexuality, the way their brains work in my case, actually, for both of those things. People are organizing on there, they’re trolling the president. Like, I don’t want to hear any more shit talking and I will commit to not slamming Tik-Tok anymore, even in like a loving, joking way. That shit is important. It’s changing the world. But yeah, I was literally this jokey video of this woman being like if you struggle with… And it was like this list of-
Nichole [00:25:34] And you’re like…
Callie [00:25:35] Yeah, characteristics. And it was honestly things I had, I would never ever have assumed had anything to do with ADHD. And that’s kind of the problem, too, right? We tend to see these like, we hear these one narratives about, if even that, I mean, there’s so many things that we just don’t know anything about. But for the things that we know some, like, we only get this like one story about what it looks like. Like we only really, like when you think of autism, you think of like one example, right, that you see in the media. And ADHD, same thing. I mean, the mental picture that I had was like hyperactive young boys, right? A little kid in school who’s like bouncing all over the room and he can’t contain himself. And he’s like, or someone who’s slightly older, but just like all over the place. And a guy who’s like zoning off in the middle of conversation or just being like, distracted to the point of like, it’s annoying, right?
Callie [00:26:32] And I never knew it involved things like emotional dysregulation. Like I’ve always felt, and I’ve literally described myself this way to Nichole, and it’s one of like those kind of deeply painful things I’ve held back. But like, I’ve just always felt too much. Like I feel like I just have this, like, wall of emotion that I have to, like, block off, because even the little bit of emotion that I share with the people close to me feels like, overwhelming. And I’ve just always felt like too much. It’s like I feel things too deeply. I’m loud, I am, I talk a lot. All of these things, well, those are all classic signs of ADHD. It’s not just like a hyper-active young kid. It’s someone who’s talkative. It’s emotional dysregulation. It’s someone who feels a lot of things to like really big degrees, you know? The pain of rejection, it’s like actually more painful for ADHD folks, you know? Cue my other things.
Callie [00:27:36] Like, it’s just there’s a lot of, you are someone who can really only motivate through like, like you procrastinate to the point where everything you do always has to feel like an emergency. You know, that’s a that can be a classic sign of it. And I don’t want to get too far into this because I’m still learning about it and I don’t want to be seen as like, you know, giving bad advice or not fully, you know, fleshed out advice. But there was this whole list of things that I never would have associated with ADHD. Eating disorders have a big link to both ADHD and autism, you know, like I, and again, like I’ve been diagnosed with things over my life and now I’m like, could this all be kind of stemming from the same place? You know, like when I started, like, chronically overeating, when I was very young, like, could that have been because like, I have ADHD and the way my brain, like, handles dopamine is not functioning as well as it should of and that’s why I turned to food? And then, of course, like the diet culture is what actually turned an overeating issue into, you know, eating disorders.
Callie [00:28:53] But like, I’ve never understood the root of some of these things. And like the last couple years, I was so like clinically depressed, like really bad. And like, could that, and part of it was because I was just so tired all the time and I was like struggling to do what I needed to do. And then you get this, like, shame over not being able to do what you feel like you need to do. And then it just kind of creates this vicious cycle. Could that be just kind of my final, like, finally getting so exhausted to the point where I just kind of shut down? You know, from a lifetime, my lifetime of like not being, like struggling to maintain and struggling to keep up with the things like I needed to do, you know, but just all kind of trigger my brain in like, the worst possible way.
Callie [00:29:45] Like, how many times have I talked about social media and how much I struggle with the fact that we’re on like six different apps because of our show? You know, because to be a good content creator you’ve got to be on all the apps and you’ve got to be keeping up with everything and responding to messages. And that stuff is all really hard for me because I’ll pick up my phone and I look up and it’s been six hours, you know? And I know a lot of people do that, but it’s a thing that like everything I do then ends up becoming like too much. It’s like every little kind of issue I have becomes like chronic like it’s happening all the time, and it’s always like to the point of, like, self-destructive behavior, you know? Like I had always described it as like I always felt like I had an addictive personality and I was always really nervous about that. And it’s why I like I’m very careful at doing certain things that I know could, like, turn into, you know, a really bad addiction. But that could be because, like, those kinds of things are like, people with ADHD, their brains tend to like attract and be, get really into those like quick dopamine hit type behaviors, you know, cause we don’t have enough dopamine and like, we’re struggling!
Callie [00:31:09] I just am so mad. And I’m not mad at like any one person, you know like I can see a lot of the ways in which, like, it would be hard to piece things together for people. But like, I shouldn’t be thirty-two and realizing this about myself.
Nichole [00:31:30] Yeah.
Callie [00:31:30] Like you shouldn’t be…
Nichole [00:31:34] 100?
Callie [00:31:38] Yeah. You shouldn’t be in your mid to late thirties and realizing this about yourself. Like this is so fundamentally like how we relate to the world and each other and all of the things that we’ve ever struggled with. And I’m not saying this is, like it excuses at all or it means that now… Like, that’s the other thing, too. And I kind of hate that I even just said that.
Nichole [00:32:10] I was going to say, like…
Callie [00:32:11] Because no, it’s not even about that. And that’s like another thing, too. Like when I, so I confronted my therapist. I hadn’t been seeing her in a few months and I made an appointment because I was like I just made this, like, discovery about myself and I wanted to see, you know, if you agree with it. And the way she responded, I just… It’s so frustrating because people think that coming up with labels or diagnoses or any of these things are like an excuse, right? Or that like, oh, you’re drug-seeking or you’re coming up with an excuse so that now you can be lazy and be like, oh, it’s my ADHD. And it’s like, no, this is just to, like, help me heal a little bit. Like it’s to help me realize-
Nichole [00:33:01] Uh oh. I don’t know what’s going on with her internet today.
Callie [00:33:07] My fucking Wi-Fi.
Nichole [00:33:13] I didn’t know if it was the webcam or your Wi-Fi.
Callie [00:33:16] No, my wifi, my internet keeps going in and out. So anyway. It’s not about coming up with an excuse. It’s about like trying to, like, bridge gaps, and to understand ourselves better and we need to normalize that. And I saw a comment earlier and I apologize, I don’t remember who posted it, but about like how, what do we do to get over the shame for all of this. And for Nichole and I, our answer a lot of times is being honest about things and that’s why we put so much like personal shit into our show and with you all, because not only does it help us heal ourselves by, like, shedding light on some of these things, but then we hope it encourages other people to be like open and honest. You know, and it’s not about, and I’m saying this to myself as much as I’m saying it to anyone else. It’s not about coming up with an excuse or being able to, like, blame anything I don’t want to do on my ADHD. It’s about stopping the process where I am internally harming myself with, like, negative self-talk. You know, it’s so those moments where I’m feeling really low and bad about myself, I can be like, this is a thing you’re struggling with because your brain works differently. Like, come up with a way to do this that will work for you, you know.
Nichole [00:34:40] Yeah.
Callie [00:34:41] But it’s so hard. I mean, I have a lifetime of calling myself like the worst names, you know, inside my own head. And that’s not, like, that’s not easily overcome. So, yeah.
Nichole [00:35:01] No, it’s not easily overcome, and it’s, yeah, it’s just like for me too, it’s about knowing like… Finding a path through life that has, like, the least resistance and the most amount of joy. And you can’t do that if like you’re buying into the myth that everyone can do the same thing if they just try hard enough.
Callie [00:35:26] Yeah.
Nichole [00:35:27] You know? So, like, I just see now, like I was telling Callie about being as a service worker, right, like being a waitress for a really long time and I was very good at it when I was younger, and then I noticed pretty quickly like even by my mid-20s, I was like having a really hard time with it. And now I can see that that was a job that was incredibly taxing for me. You have to keep a million things in your head at all times. You have to put things in order of like when you’re gonna do them and you have to, like, be interpreting what every customer wants and you have to be communicating in a way that’s not going to offend anybody. But you’re like you’re dealing with people you don’t know so you have no idea where their lines are.
Callie [00:36:16] Right.
Nichole [00:36:18] And yeah, I just think back on, I wouldn’t have really had a choice at that time. But, you know, like I just think like yeah if we were empowered to understand ourselves, to know ourselves and the world was more accommodating than we could see stuff like that and be like, oh, that’s a job that would not be good for me because it would be too taxing. So let me choose something else. Let me go somewhere else. Or let me limit my time here. Right, like, maybe I just do two shifts a week instead of five or six. But instead, what do we do? We just carry around this guilt and shame and this feeling that we’re just failing and that there’s something wrong with us, but not in the sense that, like, oh, I must just function differently than other people. It’s like there’s just this indefinable, undefinable? Thing that’s off about us that just makes us less than. And we feel like everyone can see it. It’s like on the outside. And so everything we do has to be around hiding it and overcoming it. Yeah. And I just, that’s what it makes me angry on your behalf because I just don’t really understand, after hearing someone say, like, I don’t know why I can’t do things other people can do easily, you know, and like the shame that you felt and the depression you’re struggling with, like how someone can be like, hey, maybe something’s going on here in your brain. Let’s talk about that.
Callie [00:37:48] Yeah. Like we’ve tried to set you on a schedule for like two years now in therapy and every week you seem unable to stick with it. Maybe there’s some reason behind that and it’s not just like, well you should keep trying because you can willpower yourself through this.
Nichole [00:38:05] Yeah. And I saw someone mention up thread about like labels and how a lot of therapists now think labels, like they’re like, oh, labels shouldn’t matter. And they’re kind of like getting away from them. But it’s like labels do fucking matter to a lot of us.
Callie [00:38:19] Yeah.
Nichole [00:38:19] I am someone who loves a fucking label. It makes me feel safe. It doesn’t mean… Like I had a chiropractor once who was like, oh, well, don’t get like too into labels because then you’re like limiting yourself and you’re like creating your own reality. And it’s like, no, I’m living my reality and my reality doesn’t make any fucking sense. And this label actually makes sense of my reality so you bet your sweet ass I’m going to, like, fucking use it and love it. And like, you know, for a lot of us it’s a framing device for our fucking lives and it’s a roadmap for how we could be more, how we can be happier and healthier. I was going to use the word successful but like gross.
Callie [00:39:06] Such a capitalist.
Nichole [00:39:07] I know. But just like how, yeah, like Jess was saying like labels are useful frameworks for treatment plans. Like you know that my therapist even, who I do really love in a lot of ways, but I did get the kind of vibe from her that she’s sort of in that camp too, of like, well, it doesn’t really matter like where this is coming from. It’s here. So let’s just deal with it. And it’s like, I get that to a point, but, you know, I think ADHD as well but I was reading like autism is often bound with, like OCD. And I’ve noticed I have like similar neurology to, like OCD, even though I don’t have that. But I have a lot of compulsiveness. I have a lot of, um, getting really stuck on ideas and not being able to let them go. And I have a lot of, like, deep planted beliefs of just about how I’m supposed to be. So it’s like without the fucking release of a label, I’m never gonna stop probably trying for this thing that the label allows me to know is harmful for me and is not good for me and is actually taking away from the things that make me special and that I do have to offer other people.
Callie [00:40:24] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there’s so much self-love and growth that can come from understanding ourselves. You know, answering these questions and I try to keep that in mind whenever, like, you know, whenever I start to feel a little embarrassed or ashamed of, you know, like this is what, how many times have we, like, come out on this show now about, like a thing and, you know, and sometimes that’ll make me feel a little bit weird. And then I have to stop and remind myself like this is the work. Like this is the important work that I’m doing in my life because like understanding ourselves and the way we relate to each other and relate to the world is so incredibly important. And it has healed me in so many ways. You know, it’s not bad to be trying to find those puzzle pieces and put them together. And if that’s in the form of labels, then like, great. I mean, that needs to be normalized. Like, I hate that like people, like that there’s this shame of, like, oh, someone who has like 10 different labels about themselves or it’s like, oh, can’t they just be like normal? And it’s like, you know what? They were already living those realities. Like the labels didn’t change me, the labels helped me understand what was already happening.
Nichole [00:41:53] The labels now make you have to deal with it instead of me dealing with it by myself.
Callie [00:42:00] Yes! Yes!
Nichole [00:42:02] It’s like part of positivity culture. It’s like, don’t be… I was even reading that because when I was doing research for our Ask a Bitch session that had, about like sexuality, and so many of the videos I watched in the comments, people were like, “Who cares? Like why do you need a label? Just like, love who you love.” And it’s like, OK, first of all, we don’t have equal rights. So like, you can’t always actually love who you love without, like, risk of violence or jail or whatever, not having access to, you know, the same rights.
Callie [00:42:36] Yeah.
Nichole [00:42:37] And also it’s just like, there’s a deep sense, like I have such a deep sense of identity with this and it is soothing to me and it helps me externalize what I have felt internally my entire life. And the reason that other people won’t want me using this label is because then they have to tune in to what I’ve experienced and make some kind of accommodation for it. Or have some empathy for it or change their perspective. And that’s what people don’t want to do. And it’s bullshit. It’s bullshit.
Callie [00:43:15] That’s such a good point.
Nichole [00:43:16] It’s incredibly ableist to tell people like, oh, don’t, you know? Like I’ve been searching my whole life to figure out why I’m sick. I’ve never known and I feel like this is actually probably a really big piece of that. And so I have dealt with so much shit from people about like, oh, now you think you’re this, or like now it’s this thing and it’s like, well, I’m really fucking sick and my systems are one by one, like breaking down. So it makes sense that I might have multiple situations at the same time. But like more importantly, why don’t you just hear that I’m scared and I don’t feel good and I’m trying to figure out what the fuck is wrong with me because I feel like I’m dying half the time and yet my blood work comes back and it’s perfect. And that is fucking scary to me. I’ve had days where I’m like, I think I’m going to die in my bed one day and they’re gonna do an autopsy and be like nothing was wrong with her. And that’s gonna be my fucking life. Rotting in my house by myself because I have no friends because I’m an asshole Scorpio, right, who doesn’t need anyone. And then my death is just gonna be this, like, big question mark.
Nichole [00:44:24] So anyway, I’ve had so much shit from people just gaslighting me about my own experience. And what people hate about a label is that it can take away their ability to gaslight you. Although we all know, those of us with chronic stuff and like invisible stuff, they often find a way to continue to gaslight. But I said that to my therapist. So full disclosure, my therapist didn’t like formally formally diagnose me, but we had a conversation and she’s a bit of an anarchist, which I love about her. So she’s like, you know, I empower you, like, if this works for you, like this fits, then like there’s no reason that you need some authority to tell you what you are. I’m actually reaching out to a specialist to see if I can work with someone who, like, has experience working with adults. Because if you haven’t looked, it’s incredibly hard to find someone who doesn’t specialize in children to, like, try to get maybe more of a formal diagnosis.
Nichole [00:45:27] But she was like, how do you feel about that? And I said, honestly, it kind of like is uncomfortable for me because my entire life I’ve always had people thinking I was making stuff up. And I while I obviously agree with you as an anarchist that I don’t want like someone else having the authority over my reality and my identity, I also really feel like I need that validation. I really feel like I need an authority figure to be like this is real and true and now no one else can take it away from you because like I’ve said so. And I hate that. I don’t want to need that. But like at the same time, I do. And it’s because no one wants to deal with it. And like, if labels weren’t important then people wouldn’t challenge you on this stuff, right? People wouldn’t be like, well, who told you that, or how do you know, or did you get a test or who diagnosed you, or like, where’s the paperwork? You know, like people wouldn’t push. It’s just another fucking, like, neoliberal bullshit thing.
Callie [00:46:34] Well and think, too, of the fact that, like, we now have like… So both of these diagnoses, I don’t exactly know like, what to call them cause, like, disorder doesn’t feel right. Like, you know, it feels like inherent shame with it.
Nichole [00:46:48] I know, I haven’t… yeah.
Callie [00:46:50] But like, so these two labels now, like both of them are underdiagnosed in people assigned female at birth and they’re subjective. It’s not like we can get a blood test or anything that’s going to be like you definitely have it. I saw a question about, I think it was Gavnap, who posted about like, do you guys have a fear of, like, going to an expert and have them be like, “No, you don’t have this”? And yes, Nichole and I were both, like-
Nichole [00:47:22] Terrified.
Callie [00:47:22] Terrified to go to our, go back to our therapists over the last couple of weeks and be like we, like tripped over this label that we feel like, well, it makes a lot of sense. And the catharsis that we felt at coming across these and researching them and realizing how much they seemed to fit, and then the fear that that could then be taken away. Right, by an expert being like, no, absolutely not. And then like, where does that leave you? You know, it is terrifying and it is really fucked up that, like, to see the inherent problems in the medical field, right? Like to know how many times, like, people get misdiagnosed, people’s pain gets written off or underplayed. How many people don’t get diagnosed because, like, they just, they’re assumed that unless you have these, like, really obvious… Especially for women, like I mean, the article, Nichole found a couple really good articles last night and the one, it was one about autism in girls and how like there’s been so many experiments? Experiments is not the right word…
Nichole [00:48:44] Studies?
Callie [00:48:44] Studies. Thank you. Experiment sounds like a lot more insidious. But like studies that show like that young girls, like their symptoms have to be like so, so overblown compared to the young boys that are like then get a diagnosis, you know? And we see that so often, right? Like women even going, I saw someone mention heart attacks in women in the comment section. Like a woman will go to the E.R. and like, they’ll be like, oh, no, you’re fine, go home. And she’s literally having a heart attack. Because, like, the doctors are not trained, they’re first of all like there’s a chronic problem with under diagnosing women’s pain. But then we assume heart attacks only look a certain way and it’s based on what the symptoms look like in men. And so it is wild, is I guess what I’m trying to say, that so many of us would have such a fear of having a doctor be like, no, that doesn’t fit you, while also knowing how fucking wrong they are, how often they are.
Nichole [00:49:52] Fatally wrong.
Callie [00:49:52] You know? Like I, like if a doctor did say that to me, I would really struggle with that instead of being like, well, fuck you, I’m going to find someone else then, you know?
Nichole [00:50:02] Yeah. Yeah. Well and that also, just to give, I think we lost her again. I can hear it in my headphone because it just goes silent and I’m like, oh shit. I also… What was I saying? Welcome to my brain. Oh, oh yes! So I think it’s also an issue for access too, because people make it sound like, oh, you could just go get another, like, you know, if you believe in it, you should just go pursue another diagnosis. But it’s like for a lot of us, like if you don’t have insurance, you may have scraped together, like, the little bit of money you have to go see someone. Like I’m in that case right now where I’m unemployed and I have no insurance. So I reached out to the specialist and was like, hey, you mentioned a sliding scale, let me know what that means. But like, if this person can’t help me or doesn’t think that I have this then I don’t really have the resources to go somewhere else.
Nichole [00:51:09] Even if I had the confidence to do so, which I probably, I might at this point but like younger me definitely would not have. I mean, I never got treatment for body dysmorphia because every time I even brought it up, I felt like my therapists were like, dismissive of it and I would just, like, run away from it immediately. Because there is something about it like that hit me so deeply and so primally that I couldn’t emotionally withstand someone telling me that it wasn’t me. So basically, I was just, like backing up your point that, like, going to get a second opinion or whatever, like is such a like privileged thing to say, because even if you have the confidence to do it, you don’t necessarily have the access or the resources.
Callie [00:51:56] Totally.
Nichole [00:51:58] And there’s stuff that like, you just can’t, you know, you just can’t handle having someone take away from you.
Callie [00:52:06] Yeah. Yeah.
Nichole [00:52:08] And then other people agree. And I feel like if people are gonna challenge you on a label or a diagnosis, then like even if you end up getting it from somebody, they’re just going to be like, well, two other people said, you don’t so, like, maybe you just found some doctor to say that you do. So you just have… And that’s really the heart of what my therapist was getting at. And I do respect what she had to say. I just like also need the validation. But, yeah, that’s at the heart of what she was getting at is like, people are always going to try to take this away from you. So, like, you need to just, like, determine it for yourself and be like, good in that.
Callie [00:52:45] Yeah. Yeah. And if you feel like it fits and if you feel like it’s helpful, then like fuck everything else, you know? And it’s just, it really upsets me that we don’t think that way.
Nichole [00:53:00] I know.
Callie [00:53:00] You know? That you and I don’t and that so many other people don’t either. We have all of these narratives. And again, this culture of like these bad daddies, like always needing an authority figure, even knowing that authority is like…
Nichole [00:53:17] Bullshit.
Callie [00:53:17] Yeah. First of all, it’s bullshit and is so often wrong. Like, I mean, we’re two anarchists and we’re still like, we need a doctor to confirm this like highly subjective thing for us, that’s even in the last couple of weeks brought us like immeasurable catharsis, right, and healing. And we’re still like, oh, but this could so easily be taken away by some, like, fuckin jerk in a lab coat being like, oh, no. Like, no, you don’t. What?!
Nichole [00:53:49] Nice try little girl. Sit down.
Callie [00:53:51] Right? I mean, that’s insanity.
Nichole [00:53:56] Yes.
Callie [00:53:57] But we’re just so well trained, you know?
Nichole [00:54:00] Well, and I was gonna say, part of probably what we wanted to tap into today and then definitely we’ll bring up going forward is also like internet and SJW culture and how that also plays into it. Because now…
Callie [00:54:15] [inaudible whisper]. Sorry for distracting you.
Nichole [00:54:20] Now that we… I just heard that whisper so perfectly, it was like at the perfect level. It was like right here. Now that we are in an environment where, that we’ve talked about many times, that like people try to get privilege. Well, it’s kind of like reverse privilege, right, people try to get social clout and protection by adopting identities. And that’s like such a doubles sword thing because we have created an environment where people do have more social clout, the more marginalized identities they have. But at the same time, that’s incredibly ablest because then you’re basically reducing someone’s lived experience down to trying to get more social capital.
Nichole [00:55:13] And I think we’ve felt this, if I can be frank, especially as white people, like every time we come out, we always have this conversation about like if we think other people are going to think that we’re trying to just be a little bit more bulletproof by adopting these things. And I will be very honest and say that that adds an enormous amount of anxiety for me about how I feel and about like my lived experience and all this stuff. And like we really had to have some conversations about like if we were okay doing this episode before we had some like super official authorities say like, yes, beyond a shadow of a doubt like this is you now go forth and like not have anyone try to call you out on, you know, trying to get more street cred by being autistic or having ADHD. And that’s like disgusting, honestly. It like makes me actually really angry.
Nichole [00:56:11] And what also makes me extremely angry is the way that we police, you know, we’ve talked about this ad nauseam, but like the way that we police other people’s language and the way that we’re so nit-picky about words that are used. And hopefully everyone here I think is a super fan so, like, you know what I mean by that. If you’re new, just you’ll have to take it on faith right now, we don’t have time for me to get into that doesn’t mean like I want to use some horrible word and get away with it. I’m talking about, like, subtle stuff here.
Callie [00:56:44] Yeah.
Nichole [00:56:45] Like, I had someone, you know, call me out on Instagram because I said autistic people in a big post about police and how they, like, disabled people are more highly killed and arrested and targeted by them. And they were like, I can send you articles and all this stuff. And I was like, I actually am autistic and I don’t agree with you, but I am not out yet so I can’t, you know, have this conversation. Anyway, there’s a lot of, like, nit-picking stuff we do about language. Or we just, you’ve seen it a million times like when people get canceled, there’s stuff that’s like obvious and yes, you know, the person did something bad and whatever. But there’s a lot of times when a lot of the fury that gets whipped up isn’t even necessarily about what the person did or said. It’s about all the analysis of what their intention really was behind it.
Nichole [00:57:35] And now, obviously like I’ve had this experience the whole time I’ve been making media, of knowing how easy it is to say something wrong and really honestly not mean it. Like my brain does weird fuckin shit all the time. Stuff comes out, I have no idea where it came from and I can guarantee you it’s not from this place of like, oh, I’m secretly X, Y, Z. It’s really just like my brain takes a lot of shortcuts because it has a hard time with stuff. So I cling to like turns of phrase, which is one of the reasons I thought I wasn’t autistic because apparently autistic people aren’t supposed to understand turns of phrase, but I love turns of phrase because it’s like this cliched kind of thing that means a thing and I know I can use it in these certain situations and everybody knows what I’m talking about. But then you find out that that stuff is… Almost every single cliche phrase we have is racist, right?
Nichole [00:58:37] So anyway, I’m just going off on a tangent, but I’ve just, like I’ve known from my own internal experience, but I haven’t felt able to talk about it. But now having this awareness of myself, I can say that language is important. Of course it is. And we all need to be growing, we all need to be like trying and making spaces as safe as possible for each other. But the way that we mostly go about it sucks. It sucks for people whose brains work differently. It really does. Because I can tell you, like, even to do this show always, like this is enormously taxing thing for me to do. I don’t think it is for you, or is it?
Callie [00:59:27] Recording?
Nichole [00:59:29] Yeah. I feel like it’s like, like this is probably good for how your brain works.
Callie [00:59:36] Umm… Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Nichole [00:59:38] Yeah. But for me, like, I’m so obsessed with saying things right. I struggle with my words. I really care about what I’m saying and I don’t want to say things wrong. So like I just generally have anxiety all the time. And then to be in an environment where it’s like, oh, let’s nit-pick the shit out of this. And I’m not saying it’s like necessarily happening to me that often. I can’t complain. We’ve actually had an easier time than I would have thought. But, you know, I’ve just had this insight of like this is what it’s like for people. And then I’ve had people reach out who are like, I’m on the spectrum or I have social anxiety or whatever, and I really want to do a podcast, but I don’t, like do you think that I can? And I’ve had to tell them, like, I can’t tell you. Like, I can only be honest with you like that this is really fucking hard.
Callie [01:00:29] Yeah.
Nichole [01:00:29] Like people are not going to give a shit about how your brain works. People are not going to fucking care about your feelings. Like people like will just want to disagree with you for like no reason. Not to say it’s always for no reason. But we’ve definitely had people who disagree with us just because they’re like you’re on the internet and I want to fight right now. And it’s just a lot coming at you from all angles. And so part of that is just how the internet works. But a big part of it, honestly, like I’ve experienced this kind of stuff from like other activists. You know, and it’s like, let’s be better. Let’s do better. And now just knowing that this is what I am and that I have, like it, it’s very validating to the internal experience I’ve felt this entire time where I’ve felt it like the whole way that we largely organize and do this work is incredibly ableist. It really is. And there’s, this could be a whole episode, I need to get off this topic.
Nichole [01:01:31] But I just think we need to, like, think about that collectively. I think we always need to be thinking about, like, how can we make stuff more accessible? How can we have a bit more patience and room for people? Again, I’m not talking about if someone’s like obviously being shitty. I’m talking about like someone’s awkward and they’re trying. But like, if like, for instance, if you see someone who’s, like, always struggling to find their words, don’t jump on them for using the wrong word. Because it’s probably literally something their brain just fired out at random. That’s happened to me so many times. And I’m like, I don’t even believe that like. Or like I don’t even know where that word came from or whatever. I’m not talking about, like, bad words. I’m just talking about, like, random, just random weird stuff. I’m like where did that even come from in my head.
Nichole [01:02:20] So like just things like that, like we need to find a way to make it okay for neurodivergent people and people with social anxiety and other types of people to like make media without just thinking that it’s like the second you’re on the internet you are a target for, you know, perfection. Like, if you’re not perfect and no one agrees on what perfect looks like, then you’re someone that can be picked apart. Cause I can tell you if I didn’t have Callie and if we hadn’t lucked out with, like, getting a pretty good audience early on, I would not be doing this work right now. And some of you might be like, we wish that you weren’t. Fair. But I know a lot of you have really benefited from the work that Callie and I have done because of episodes like this, you know, that are just like validating and cathartic and we talk about a lot of stuff, like make connections between things. And there’s been a hundred times where I almost quit because it’s too much. It’s just too fucking much.
Callie [01:03:19] Yeah. And we expect too much. You know, it reminds me a lot of, and this is probably going to be a clumsy example, but it reminds me a lot of the discourse around when someone becomes famous, like really famous, you know? And people on the internet will just, like this person will be like terrorized, you know, by like the paparazzi and stuff. And people are like, well, they’re famous, what did they expect? They signed up for this. And it’s like they did not sign up to have people digging through their garbage and stalking them every waking moment of their life. Like they signed up to be in a movie. Like they wanted to be like an actor or a singer, you know? And it’s just, I feel like, not that I’m comparing us to people that are famous, but it’s like I feel like-
Nichole [01:04:06] Aren’t you though?
Callie [01:04:09] No, but I feel like it’s a similar example of, like, what people kind of expect, like, you do a certain thing and then people are like, oh, well, if you do this, then that means you’re agreeing to all of this.
Nichole [01:04:23] Yeah, it’s just like free…
Callie [01:04:24] Yeah. And it’s like there’s been so many things with the show that I feel like, you know, we choose to put this show out. Our style of activism is having these long, deep, I think, insightful conversations, you know, and yet as content creators, that means we somehow signed up to be on all of the social media apps and available 24/7. And we need to be like up on the memes and up on the trends. And we need to like respond to messages always within timely fashion. And it’s like where did like us putting out an episode agree to basically opening up our entire lives, like the parts that we’re not willing to put on the show, or our time that we’re not putting into the show directly is now accessible to everyone, you know?
Callie [01:05:16] And I don’t say this to be shitty. And I’m not saying that I don’t like being on the apps sometimes or that I don’t like getting the really heartfelt, like emails and messages from people and the friendships and the bonds that we’ve made. I do appreciate all of that, but it’s like the expectation that all of that just like automatically comes with choosing to make content, you know? And like, how many other people probably see that and they’re like, well I can’t do that. I don’t have it in me or I don’t have the time or I have social anxiety and that’s going to stress me out, you know?
Nichole [01:05:56] Or I’m chronically ill and I just, I have enough energy to put something out. I don’t have enough energy to, you know, be doing this stuff all week.
Callie [01:06:03] Yeah. And I just, yeah. I mean, for a while, you know, since Nichole has, you know, been more open the last couple years about her chronic illness on the show, I’m seeing how ableist our culture is. But, and this is going to sound bad because it shouldn’t take us individually finding out something about ourselves in order to see it even more but like I’m now seeing it so much more because like these-
Nichole [01:06:31] Well you can see the subtleties of it more easily.
Callie [01:06:33] Yeah. Yeah.
Nichole [01:06:35] It’s not like we didn’t know or believe it. But like now you can like, really see it in like the subtle ways.
Callie [01:06:42] Totally. Totally. Yeah and the expectations like, like it shouldn’t, like the things that we’ve struggled with like it shouldn’t take us now coming out with this thing about ourselves to make people relate to us differently. And I know they’re going to and I’m happy for that. But I’m also like, it shouldn’t have taken that. Like, the assumption shouldn’t be that until someone comes out with something, you’re gonna treat them normally. Right? And we do that with everything. We do it with gender. We do it with sexuality. We do it with whether they’re able-bodied, you know, disabled or not, like neurotypical or not. Like just all of these things, right? And I know we’ve talked about this previously on the show, you know, about people that are now because of this weird kind of fucked up SJW culture that some parts of the left have really taken on, it’s like you almost have to be like constantly outing yourselves just to like have as a place in the conversation. And that’s really fucked up. Like that should not be necessary.
Nichole [01:07:48] Yeah. And that goes back to what I was saying about like then you feel like you have to have a diagnosis because then people are like, well, I don’t believe you because I think you’re just trying to like have a place in this conversation. And it’s like, when is this madness going to stop? Like, Jesus, can we not?
Callie [01:08:06] Yeah. Yeah. We’ve really struggled y’all with like everything we’ve learned about ourselves that we’ve like had some sort of like coming out moment on the show. It’s been really difficult because we do know that, like, there are going to be those who see that, who maybe don’t consume our media, but see that and are like, oh, they’re just trying to like distance themselves from their whiteness or oh, they’re trying to just get more power or they’re trying to like, you know, increase their marginalization identities, you know, so that they’re like, I like how you called it, like more bulletproof before. I feel like that’s, you know, and it’s like this hierarchy. It’s like a fucked up game of like SJW Pokémon where like the more cards you get, the more like powerful you are in these spaces. And something that is providing healing to us, should not be a thing that’s like we should be ashamed to admit because people are going to think we’re doing it in this gross, weird, power-grabbing way. And it’s really messed up. You know, we had the same fear, like I definitely did, coming out as queer. I was so fucking terrified that people were going to be like, oh, you’re just saying that, you know? And it’s like, no, I’m not.
Nichole [01:09:29] No, I, yeah we literally like, I was afraid to come out as nonbinary, genderqueer, because I was like, you know, people are just going to think that we’re like making this stuff up or whatever. And like this is the space that would accept us.
Callie [01:09:47] Right.
Nichole [01:09:48] Like, think about that. Like everyone else is gonna reject us. Everyone else is gonna hate us for being these things. And this is the one place that we can be safe being these things and we don’t feel safe coming out as these things. And it’s not like just us. Like, I don’t want you to feel bad for us. We’re just saying it’s like people who have been inside of this like this is a lot of people. We get a lot of people come to us with these things, too, and are like, I’m afraid like I really think that this is me but I’m afraid to experiment with the label because blah blah blah. And it’s like, this is nuts y’all. Like we should not feel unsafe in the only spaces that we are even marginally safe, being these things. And also, I can’t say this for other whites because they’re always up to shenanigans. I feel like I literally don’t have a single white person to look up to. And it like, honestly is fucking with me, like pretty bad. But that’s my white struggle. It’s fine. But I can tell you-
Callie [01:10:46] You just got us so cancelled.
Nichole [01:10:46] I can tell you that as a white person, there is literally nothing that I can take on that will make me bulletproof on the internet. I know that. So I can just let the audience know here now that if you ever hear us come out with anything, we do not feel that we’re any more untouchable than we were before. Because we’ve learned, we know. If you’re white on the internet, like that’s it. Like it doesn’t matter. And whatever, it’s fine. Again, that’s our white struggle. It’s fine. And I’m saying that very tongue in cheek. Please don’t cancel me. It’s a joke.
Callie [01:11:30] Yeah, well, and the sad thing is, is like we say this, but like, and I think people will hear, you know, take this the wrong way and they’ll hear two white people saying it and they’ll think that we’re trying to hide, you know, from criticism. And it’s like, first of all-
Nichole [01:11:48] We can’t. That’s my point, we can’t
Callie [01:11:50] We can’t and we’re not.
Nichole [01:11:52] And we’re not.
Callie [01:11:52] But more importantly, it’s not just people that have, quote-unquote, privilege like or a lot of privileges, right, that feel this way. It’s everyone. And that’s why we all need to be having these conversations more, because, like I guarantee you, there are people out there who in this, like, game of SJW Pokémon have like the most cards that are still fucking terrified of being canceled for, like, dumb shit.
Nichole [01:12:18] Oh, absolutely.
Callie [01:12:18] You know, and they’re still feeling like they would like to claim a new label that they feel like fits for them and they’re fucking scared, you know. And so it like, it affects everyone. And we’re just, we’re harming ourselves in this. I love how you talked about how this is like this space that’s supposed to be safe for us. Like, you know, we can’t go out in, like, the normie world now and have, like people would be like, you’re fucking ridiculous, you know, like…
Nichole [01:12:48] I know. Are you kidding me? People who follow me on Facebook are like done with me. People like from my hometown are like, I don’t even know what you are anymore. You’re not even a human to me anymore
Callie [01:12:56] Yeah, like why do you have to keep labeling yourselves? You’re being so annoying. Like, can’t you just be normal?
Nichole [01:13:01] Why are talking about burning down stuff? Why do you always have some diagnosis you’re coming out with? Like why are you wearing rainbow everything nowadays? Like what are you talking about?
Callie [01:13:10] Why’d you shave your head? Like all of your things, right?
Nichole [01:13:12] All of it.
Callie [01:13:12] And so it’s like we should be safe in these spaces and yet we’ve just like, we’ve replicated so much harm and we’ve just made it so much harder. Like, people are not finding out things about themselves because they’re scared of like walking that journey because people think, it’s almost like you’re going to be seen as like appropriating or again, like trying to find some measure of safety for yourself. And it’s like, like I could potentially not have followed this path. Like, I could not have learned something truly fundamentally important about myself over fear of like being canceled for it. You know? Or not, maybe I did realize it about myself, but then wouldn’t be honest about it. And how many more people are now going to be like, oh, this is like hitting home for me. Maybe I’m going to, like, do some research and see if any of these things fit. Like then that’s more people who wouldn’t be like trying to heal or like potentially healing from some of these things. Like, I just, I hate it. You know?
Nichole [01:14:19] I hate it, too. And I think there’s a big difference between being aware of other people’s experiences or how the experiences you have could be more challenging in someone else’s situation, and an erasure of your own experience. And that’s something that we have to, like, constantly grapple with. So, yeah, I can just only promise you all that, like when I want to say that we’re done, but who knows? You know, who knows what’s left to discover? But yeah, when we have episodes like this, it’s about two things very specifically. It’s about one, we are very bad, I’m sure you’ve all notice, at not talking about stuff that we’re thinking about. So like I was, I literally had the hardest time not mentioning this on Thursday during the live stream. I almost came out of my mouth like seven different times. So, like, it’s just to be like, hey, this is something that’s going to be part of what we talk about now.
Nichole [01:15:20] And two, and probably the more important part for us is, yeah just to like, spread awareness and creates a safer, like an expandedly safer space for people and help someone maybe be like, holy shit I think that’s me. Or I think that’s my friend. Or wow, I never thought about that and now when I interact with people, I might take that into consideration. Or I might see ways that I could challenge this in the systems around me now that I have this awareness, that’s all it’s about.
Callie [01:15:51] And just fundamentally be more patient with people, you know, like don’t wait for someone to tell you a thing before you just treat people with, like some measure of like patience and empathy and understanding. You know, if someone’s not responding in the way that you think they should or in the time that they should, or they respond in a way that seems different to you like instead of jumping all over them, realize like there may be something going on or maybe there is not, but it shouldn’t matter, you know.
Nichole [01:16:21] Yeah, yeah.
Callie [01:16:22] It’s, I know that’s all very vague what I just said. But, like, that’s kind of the work of starting to like, really see how ablest our society is and starting to undo it, is like not only creating space for people to like understand themselves better and to use the labels that fit, but about not necessarily needing people to do that before we extend like, some grace, right, to people.
Nichole [01:16:50] Yeah. And yeah, and also our expectations of what people on the internet can do. We just get a lot of, you know, I don’t want to make anyone feel bad, but there’s just, we get sent a lot of things. We get a lot of requests where it’s very clear that even though we’re literally constantly talking about how tired and overwhelmed we are, people aren’t like hearing that or considering that when they reach out. And even honestly, even a lot of it’s other content creators, you know, we get contacted by a lot of people who, like, want to be on the show or want us to share their content. And it’s like, but to do that I have to, like, consume your content. I have to screen you. I have to think about, like, if the vibe will fit. I have to, you know, it’s like I can’t, I’m not going to just like retweet something because I care about like what we’re sort of signing off on.
Callie [01:17:41] Right.
Nichole [01:17:42] So I’m not just gonna promote something. So I have to like actually consume it and probably consume more than just the thing you sent to make sure you’re cool. And like, there’s just a lot that goes into it. And I just, you know, I’ve talked to other content creators who are also disabled in some way and they feel the same way. It’s like usually you just get to a point where you have to, like, shut stuff off. And that sucks because it’s like I don’t want to not interact with the audience, but I just need people to, like, try to have more awareness of, like what you’re asking of us and what our capacity is, you know?
Callie [01:18:18] Yeah.
Nichole [01:18:18] And I think like, people on the internet, and you know, a lot of people it’s like best intentions and it doesn’t make me mad it just, it’s just overwhelming. But like people on the internet, you think, oh, they’re trying to, like, be popular or they must be doing this stuff all the time. And I think it’s just very easy to think, like if you’re making content and if you’re on the internet, like you’re on the socials, then you have the ability to do those things in the very standard capitalist way that like social media influencers do those things. And it’s like there’s a giant spectrum of like a social media influencer down to like a disabled queer anarchist podcaster, you know what I mean?
Nichole [01:19:04] So, yeah, I just think it’s like all of us collectively together. And I know I’ve adjusted how I engage with other people’s content dramatically since I started making my own. And I have a lot of stuff I look back on and I’m like oof. You know, like I just wish I had had more awareness when I contacted that person. But I think the internet is so important, especially right now, that I don’t want it to be like people have to just get off the internet for their lives to be manageable. I think we do really collectively need to get together and figure out, like, how do we engage with each other electronically in a way that’s sustainable and, like, joyful for everyone.
Callie [01:19:51] Yes, yeah.
Nichole [01:19:52] You know, because so much of it’s just turned into like, like even for myself. I go on Twitter sometimes and I’ll find myself in the middle of a fight with somebody. And I’m like, Why?
Callie [01:20:01] Yeah.
Nichole [01:20:02] Why am I doing this?
Callie [01:20:04] Yeah.
Nichole [01:20:04] You know, some guy told me today that he is going to keep the cops and get rid of me because that would be better and easier. Like, he basically was like a death threat. And I’m like, why did I even respond to this guy’s comment in the first place?
Callie [01:20:18] Yeah.
Nichole [01:20:19] You know, it’s like, why are we doing this? So that’s the problem is the internet is set up in a way, all these apps are set up in a way to, like, drive you into that sort of behavior. And so I just think when we have our spaces and when we’re contacting each other directly, at least like let’s continuously always think about like how we’re engaging with other people and how we can be better. I don’t even like the word better, but just continuously, like, refine our community and how we engage with each other.
Callie [01:20:52] Yeah, yeah. And as cliched as it’s gonna sound like try to interact with people online more of like how we would in person, you know? Like really try to like have more understanding. Like you know, in person you don’t usually jump to the assumption that someone’s like a hateful asshole until like until they can prove they’re not. It’s like everything online is like kind of opposite of how you interact with people in person. And I just feel like we need to, like, try to find a way to, like, bring more of that into online spaces while also finding ways to, like, keep ourselves safe. Because I know there are like so many bad actors, obviously on the Internet, like people that are just, yeah like fucking hateful or awful. And they’re gonna just… I don’t know. I don’t know what the answer is, but, like, I just got really overwhelmed.
Nichole [01:21:51] Callie just gave up midsentence. It’s like, done.
Callie [01:21:51] But, you know what I mean? I just know that the way we’re doing things now is not, it’s not working. Especially in our own spaces, you know. And that’s the problem. It’s like we need to find ways to differentiate between, like the wider, you know, open internet, like open forum type things versus like within our smaller community. Because I feel like we’re not acting much differently and those spaces should feel safer and more comforting. And I just feel like they’re not.
Nichole [01:22:21] Yeah, I agree. And it can be simple things, like I’ve thought a lot about this and I kind of saw it happen today. But like, you know, it’s hard to read people’s tone in writing. It’s hard for some people also to decipher body language. But so just putting something like a sarcasm tag or jk or something can really help comments like especially now when we’re watching stuff flash by and it’s so fast and we’re also talking and we’re also thinking about the next thing we’re gonna say and trying to listen to each other. Like just something small like that can make it so much better because I may react to something out of anger or too quickly or not recognizing a username because a lot of you have user names that are different in each place and not realizing that this is like a person that we know and trust and like, of course, this is a joke. There’s just stuff like that, like I’ve just been thinking a lot about is there etiquette that we can all develop that’s easy, but like greatly improves the experience and makes things more accessible for other people?
Nichole [01:23:28] So like I said like Alex made a joke and then like wrote like jk and Madison was like, oh, thank you for adding jk, or Cammy I think, was like I got really nervous so thank you. And it’s like small things like that actually do really help. Like that helped not just me when I saw the comment, I was pretty sure it was a joke but like then I’m like, OK, that’s just a joke. But then also, like other people in the community are like, oh, OK, that’s a joke like we’re all having fun here, you know? So it’s just little things like that. Like we can just continuously think about stuff like just these little refinements and little things like that can make a huge difference because I do get a lot of anxiety reading stuff that sometimes I’m like, I don’t know if it’s a joke or not. And I know that when I get pissed I get I like, get pissed. So if I think something’s not a joke and I’m mad about it, I’m going to like tear into the person and then they’re like, that was just a joke. Or it’s like it’s me so and so like we’re friends on this other app. And I’m like, oh. And then I get really embarrassed and I feel really bad and then I get more anxiety the next time. So anyway, just one little example. And I just think if we’re all thinking this way like we’ll all have different ideas and we can just help each other in these small ways. I just think it’s really helpful.
Callie [01:24:48] Yeah, I love that. So I have something else, too, that I wanted to bring up. And it’s, it’s interesting. So I was reading or I was rewatching a video kind of in preparation for this and it was funny because what was being mentioned for ADHD was an issue with, like executive function skills. And it was funny because I remembered the episode that you did a while back on executive function and how you-
Nichole [01:25:24] Right? Isn’t that so like, ominous now?
Callie [01:25:30] [whispers] Yeah girl.
Nichole [01:25:30] I mean, not ominous, that’s like a bad word.
Callie [01:25:32] Right. But like what I think I wanted to kind of just repeat, because I know I said this, I can’t remember if I said it like on the comphet episode or if it was in the after-party. I think was probably on the episode. But just like we were talking about, like labels and kind of like how one way you might know that you kind of belong to a community is if you feel like very attached to it, even as like you kind of feel like, oh, I’m an ally, I’m an ally, but like, you feel like kind of inordinately attached and involved with it. It can be a sign.
Callie [01:26:08] Not saying that it always is. But I wanted to kind of bring that up again for this because, like, you know, Nichole did that episode on executive function and use like this term that she had come across. And she explained it really well, both for the audience, but then also like for herself personally, how it relates. And it was funny because, like when she was talking, I, there were definitely things that you were saying where I was like, oh, that doesn’t fit me. But then other things that, like, really did or I like really kind of understood and like didn’t really think about it again. It’s been a useful term in like sometimes the way you and I talk to each other or about certain things, like I know now what I can kind of call it, or when you kind of reference something for yourself you’re struggling with, I’m like, oh yeah, executive function. But like that’s also a problem with ADHD, but like in a different way.
Callie [01:26:59] And I just wanted to kind of bring all this up to kind of say, like, if there are terms that you’re hearing and they feel like they fit kind of, but in a different way, like feel free to explore that, you know, like because I think this episode will probably spark a lot of things for people, even people that like already know some of these labels about themselves or people that don’t and maybe this is like hitting close to home and you’re gonna like go, you know, kind of do more self-analysis and stuff. But I just, I want us to get to a place where we don’t feel shame in, like, investigating things for ourselves. You know, I really want us to feel empowered to know that we don’t need doctors or the medical field or whatever, but that we don’t feel like everything is through an expert, through someone, you know, that the knowledge is inaccessible to us. I learned a lot from watching this channel called like How to ADHD. And the videos are great. They’re super short and really informative and they’re colorful and fun and they keep my attention.
Nichole [01:28:15] It’s like Teletubbies for adults.
Callie [01:28:16] Yeah. Yeah. Like also another sign.
Nichole [01:28:21] They are very good videos.
Callie [01:28:23] They are.
Nichole [01:28:23] I actually really like them a lot too.
Callie [01:28:25] Yeah. And I’ve just learned a lot from it and I, and I liked that this knowledge was like accessible to me, you know? Not just like in a format that I could understand and follow, but that there was people doing this work to help people like, do this for themselves, you know? Either people that already know that they have ADHD or people like me have come across it and then started to like, look into it and be like oh shit. Like this is checking a lot of fucking boxes.
Nichole [01:28:55] A lot of fucking boxes.
Callie [01:28:57] You know? And so, I don’t know, I just kind of wanted to, like, put that out there where if this episode, like, you know, sparked some things for you, like I really empower you to, like, follow that if you want to, you know?
Nichole [01:29:11] Yeah.
Callie [01:29:11] To feel like you can do some reading. You can watch some videos. You can go listen to other podcasts like, that we feel we have the power, like we know ourselves the best, you know? And that doesn’t discount needing expert help sometimes but that shouldn’t be, it’s like, it’s like the gatekeeping of that. You know, like there shouldn’t always be this, like inaccessible, like only someone who, you know, has done this and this can really weigh in. Like, if something fits, it fits, you know? And then you can take more steps to, like, get help. But yeah, I just, I want, the anarchist in me wants us all to feel empowered, you know?
Nichole [01:29:56] Yes!
Callie [01:29:56] To do for ourselves and as a community. And, and that means sometimes like going to each other for information or knowledge. And there’s nothing wrong with that. It doesn’t make it less true that you may have learned about executive function from Nichole instead of like an M.D., you know?
Nichole [01:30:14] I mean, I’m very wise.
Callie [01:30:16] You’re totes wise.
Nichole [01:30:17] I’ve been around a long time. I know a lot of things.
Callie [01:30:21] But yeah.
Nichole [01:30:21] No, it’s true. Like, most of my biggest, probably all of my biggest epiphanies about myself have come from just another person talking about their experience. And that’s the thing. Like if I had just stuck to the DSM-5 or like the lists I found the internet, I had looked up autism several times because I’ve always 100 percent identified with all the sensory stuff. But then every time I look up that just like cold list of things, I was like, oh, it’s not me. Because like so many of the other things didn’t fit. And then it wasn’t until I watched a video of someone talking about, like, how it can present in adults that have learned to mask really well that I was like, this is literally, everything about this is me.
Callie [01:31:06] Yes.
Nichole [01:31:07] And it’s like connecting. And then I went back to the DSM and I started to actually be able to connect a lot of those things to stuff in my childhood that I then, like literally by sheer force of will, like learned how to… See my brain wants to use the word overcome, and yet my brain also is like, don’t you fucking dare use that word, because that is the opposite of what you’re trying to say here. By sheer force of will I was able to, like, mask these things. I was able to perform in the way that was socially acceptable. Now I’m realizing, I think, at a great cost to my health and my well-being. So it’s like those symptoms almost needed to be, or those… see?
Callie [01:32:00] Yeah, I don’t… Characteristics.
Nichole [01:32:03] Like I’ve literally been like so anxious about using the word symptoms. But then I’m like also anxious because some people are going to be mad that I’m saying I don’t feel like it’s a disability, for me at least anyway. Life on the internet. Where am I going with all of this?
Callie [01:32:20] That you needed someone to kind of interpret the characteristics.
Nichole [01:32:24] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, yes, like here, that’s why we feel it’s so important because we both have only had our best experiences discovering things about ourselves from other people explaining their lived experiences with those things. And then that can lead you back to, again we don’t want to place much like what level of authority needs to even be accessed, but that can lead you back to, like, talking to your therapist or, you know, talking to your doctor or whatever you feel you need to do to make the next step. Watching a documentary or reading, looking up some resources. But yeah, like you often need, because you look at stuff on paper and so much of it doesn’t translate. And so much of this is like hidden from us. I mean, the whole comphet episode is about that, right?
Callie [01:33:15] I was just going to say this is so similar to like us not realizing we were queer until later in life because the understanding of what we thought it meant to be, like, queer or whatever was so different than how we felt internally that we were like, oh, that that can’t possibly fit, you know?
Nichole [01:33:32] Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I think we just need to make more space. I know it’s hard because there’s a lot of quackery out there. There’s a lot of people taking advantage of people and making themselves experts when they’re not and giving bad information. And there are people who are just going to hear a thing and start appropriating it. But like, what is the greater cost, honestly?
Callie [01:33:56] Yeah.
Nichole [01:33:57] Is the greater cost like someone appropriating a label? That does have, you know, some costs to it for sure. For instance, like, you know, people abusing prescription drugs might lead to someone not being able to get what they need because they’re being viewed as someone trying to get prescription drugs for abuse. Like these conversations could be had. Larger conversations to be had about gatekeeping and whatever, and like why there’s addiction issues and blah blah blah. But like, I think the greater risk is people not feeling that they have access to, like, information and identities and labels that they need.
Nichole [01:34:38] One of the things they hit me really hard on a video I actually watched this morning was this person who is on the spectrum was talking about like functioning ratings, like if you’re high or low functioning because like I would be considered like high functioning autistic. And how like damaging those labels are. Because if you look at autism, like even level one, which is the least severe. So, like, high and low functioning isn’t an actual diagnosis, they have like levels. So even level one, which is the most mild form, still requires support. So she was like, if you say someone’s high functioning, do you, when you hear that phrase do you think that that’s someone who needs support? No, right? You think that that’s someone who’s fine. Like, they might have two little quirks about them and that’s it. But she’s like, but I, I, like my husband’s been supporting me for ten years. Like, way more than people realize. And I didn’t know why he needed to support me until I found this out about myself. So we just need to knock it the fuck off.
Callie [01:35:53] Yeah.
Nichole [01:35:55] Yeah, we just need, and I know I’m like preaching to the choir right now because a lot of us here are, you know, on some sort of spectrum of something which is what I love so much about our audience. But it just infuriates me. I feel like I’ve just had so many close, intimate relationships where you know, I’ve just felt like the other person was never going to believe what my experience was and I internalized even more than I realized, like that everything was always like my fault and that it was like a matter of willpower to, like, be more normal, you know? Be more what people expected.
Nichole [01:36:40] And I got lucky that, like in the last four to five years, most of the people I’ve been close to are the opposite. You know, like Callie’s the first one to call me out on my bullshit and be like, bitch. You were just saying it like last night, wasn’t it? Or the night before? You’re like… Oh, cause I’m going to try to improve my eyesight. I got two books and she was like, bitch, I’m gonna be up here – cause it supposedly makes you really tired – and she’s like, I’m gonna be the first one who’s like, if you need extra naps, take those fucking extra naps. Like your body’s working. Like, I’m not going to let you start being all down on yourself because you’re fucking tired.
Callie [01:37:15] I bully Nichole into self-care.
Nichole [01:37:19] And I need it! And you know, this for me, this label that I’m, you know, claiming for myself, it actually feels like the, like, well, starting to claim the disability label did help. But this feels like a huge push in the direction of me knocking that kind of shit off, you know? And just really like, understanding where my boundaries are, understanding what makes me special, and understanding that like no amount of brute force is going to make me into a person who isn’t tired by certain things. Right? Like, I can’t just, like, suddenly become an extrovert or whatever. Not that that’s something, I gave that up a long time ago.
Callie [01:38:09] Oh, my god, can you imagine?
Nichole [01:38:13] Hey everyone! I’m here! Can you imagine me like walking into a party and being like, “What’s up, bitches?!”.
Callie [01:38:18] And just like wanting to hang out with people all the time. Like I just, yeah.
Nichole [01:38:23] God, no. But that’s something I believed when I was younger, I thought I needed to be more outgoing, right? And like I said, I have a very complicated relationship right now, or thoughts right now about like how I am because on one hand, like, I do feel like I’ve learned to navigate social spaces really well. And I feel like, I used to have, I don’t know if it was social anxiety or just anxiety, but like, I used to be so anxious and I hated public speaking. And, you know, those are things that I’ve now really enjoy and I’m not anxious the way I used to be. So that’s cool. But like I do, I am seeing, like, what unbelievable cost there was to get there. And I wouldn’t have needed to push that hard if the world had been set up for me in a better way. And not me, obviously but like all of us.
Callie [01:39:20] Just set up to allow people to be different. Like, can you imagine?
Nichole [01:39:23] Yeah. Cause a lot of my shit didn’t need to be changed. I was fine.
Callie [01:39:27] No, I mean, and that’s the other thing, too, that I don’t think we’ve said yet that I want to make sure to get across. There are things that are really special about being autistic and having ADHD. Like there are, it’s not like a bad thing, you know? And I don’t think we gave that impression that it’s like these terrible labels and we’re realizing like all of our problems in life boil down to this. No, it’s just another piece of like understanding ourselves. But there are special skills that you and I have that I feel like we’re realizing probably come from being autistic or having ADHD. There are things that I think have allowed us to create the kind of show we have because of the special way our brains work. And that that can be celebrated. But that if people when we were, you know, younger throughout our life could see that and like, make space for differences instead of just being like, this is not the way people act, or you should be able to, like, do this the way everyone else. You know, there wouldn’t have had to be so much like shame and embarrassment and self-loathing, I think. You know?
Callie [01:40:41] Like the fact that we have like, I think I saw someone mentioned early on like that our episodes are so long and that we have these like long kind of windy conversations and our friendship and the way it’s developed. Like, it’s funny. That’s another thing, too, that I’ve always felt like a kind of twinge of embarrassment that we tend to come out with things together. And I’m like oh are people going to think that, like, we’re copying each other. Like there’s all, but it’s like it actually makes a lot of sense that, like, we kind of found each other and connected in a lot of ways that now we’re realizing are actually tied to like a specific thing. There are reasons we relate well together, you know? It’s not like one of us is copying the other one. It’s like, oh, we’re both having these kind of awarenesses or epiphanies because of we allow each other the space to grow and to learn about ourselves. And like Nichole, finding that video on the differences between autism and ADHD helped both of us because we could see how it related for the other person. But then we could also see the differences in what we specifically related to out of that video. In the same way of like your gender identity has helped me confirm mine and vice versa, you know?
Nichole [01:41:59] Helped you retain your cis-tyranny.
Callie [01:42:03] My cis-tyranny, yep.
Nichole [01:42:03] Continue your reigning.
Callie [01:42:05] My reign.
Nichole [01:42:05] No, and that was something we talked about, you know, a week or two ago that like hit me really hard, was I was like Callie our whole show, our whole professional relationship, we didn’t know, but it’s literally like the birth of this, like, beautiful thing out of neurodivergent brains. Like the structure of our whole show, everything.
Callie [01:42:33] That makes me want to cry, it’s so pretty!
Nichole [01:42:35] It’s because you can’t regulate your emotions.
Callie [01:42:40] OK. I feel very seen and yet attacked.
Nichole [01:42:43] And attacked, yep. Girl, I can’t talk about So You Think You Can Dance without crying, so you’re fine. Any time I talk about people singing or dancing I like immediately just start… It’s so embarrassing, but I just find art very moving. No but we like literally like, somehow unknowingly tapped into… This show wouldn’t exist in the format that it has if we weren’t neurodivergent. And I think that that’s so fucking beautiful. And I do a lot of work, a lot of work all the time to constantly check and see, like as a white person, should I have a platform like am I adding anything here? And I always come back to yes, I do feel that we are contributing something that’s worth contributing. Because I don’t want to just be another voice taking up space if we’re not, like, doing anything. Right? Hopefully that’s clear.
Nichole [01:43:52] And I realize now that literally that is what to me makes us so special. It’s the way we process information. It’s the way that we obsessively talk about stuff and we research it. And then we get all these new ideas about it and we just like want to keep talking about it all the time. And our friendship, you know, like our friendship has its challenges, which I think now we understand a lot better where they’re coming from. But it’s also always been extremely strong. And I think because of these ways that our brains like do kind of coalesce, like some of this stuff that lines up, like we don’t have other people often to do this kind of work with. I couldn’t do this show with anyone else like that I’ve ever met.
Callie [01:44:37] Yeah same.
Nichole [01:44:38] You know, so realizing now that we had unknowingly actually used these parts of ourselves to create something special and that’s why we’ve been able to do it for five years and we still feel, like we feel like this is new all over again. And we’re just constantly, we’re so excited for the next few weeks of content. We were Marco Poloing each other and like messaging last night, late at night, you know, about like next week’s episode and the episode after that and, like, just being all excited. And that’s why I say, like, I don’t feel that my autism is a disability. I don’t feel that Callie’s ADHD is a disability. It doesn’t mean that there’s not challenges. But I think largely those challenges are externally imposed on us, and not the two of us but like us collectively, right, all people.
Callie [01:45:28] Yes.
Nichole [01:45:30] Because I just see, everything I learned about autism, I really mean it in my heart, like I’m like those are all the things that I like and love about myself. Those are all the things that I think make me special. And I wouldn’t want to get rid of any of that for anything. I just want the world to be a little bit easier to navigate.
Callie [01:45:52] Yeah. Yeah. And that people shouldn’t have to go through, like, years of struggle, not understanding themselves because they don’t fit the box of what this capitalist, cis, hetero, patriarchal culture tells them they should be. Tells them how much they should be able to produce, you know? Tells them how they should be able to like interact with people and then they struggle to meet that, you know?
Nichole [01:46:20] The homogeny of like social interaction, like that there is a script and if you don’t follow the script, then you’re a bad person or you’re untrustworthy or you’re rude. Like, I’ve been called rude so many times and I literally will just be kind of sitting there and just so confused about it, you know? And it’s just because, like, I wasn’t following whatever social script that I wasn’t aware of at the time. And so, yeah, it’s like make space for people to just… I think that’s why, and again, I know that this could come off in different ways, but I think that that’s why it’s really important for us to do the work, to make our spaces like, within reason, hopefully you all know what I’m talking about. Within reason to, like, try to not assume guilt first. Because it really is a replication of this like colonizing white supremacist practice of like trying to homogenize everybody so that, like groups of people can just inherently automatically be othered.
Callie [01:47:25] Yep, yes.
Nichole [01:47:25] Because that’s what we do. Like, if you don’t smile, right, you’re rude. If you don’t make eye contact, you’re untrustworthy. If you don’t respond in a way that someone’s expecting, then, you know, they think that you’re not capable. All these things like do translate over into the way that we, like, really try to read into and assume like what other people mean by again, not obviously horrible stuff. But the stuff that’s a little bit trickier.
Callie [01:47:55] No, I love, I love that you said it that, this like automatic othering of people where someone doesn’t like easily clearly fit this like very structured box and they’re like automatically kind of othered and shamed into, like societally and sometimes interpersonally, like directly into acting a certain way. And it just keeps the answers from us, you know. Like yeah. Like you struggling with, like being called rude and then like genuinely not understanding it, like that’s fucking horrible, you know?
Callie [01:48:34] And like me, like I’ve always worked very cyclically and that’s a funny thing too, like you and I have been talking about recently, is we’re both kind of realizing like I struggle with like I can get really into work for like a period of time and hyperfocus, which is the thing with ADHD that I recently learned about. Because I wouldn’t have thought I had ADHD because like when I’m into a thing and when I’m focused, I’m like focused to the point of, like, everything else falls away in my life.
Nichole [01:49:07] Same.
Callie [01:49:08] And I’ve always been really proud of that. And when I’m working on a project, I can be an incredible worker or employee, right, but then I’ll go through periods of time where it’s like I can’t seem to like stay on task at all. And that created a lot of, like, internal shame of like, how can I be such a strong, hard worker in this one way, but then not be able to, like, do it all the time? It must just be laziness. And it’s like it’s not laziness.
Nichole [01:49:36] It’s not.
Callie [01:49:37] It’s the way my brain works. Like, I can hyperfocus. But then if I’m not hyperfocused, I just really struggle with the little things on a day to day basis.
Nichole [01:49:47] Oh, no. Poor Callie. Well, I was going to say I have had that, like feedback in professional reviews where my manager will be like-
Callie [01:50:01] Damn it!
Nichole [01:50:01] I’m always like, oh, poor Callie. I was just saying I have had similar feedback on, like, performance reviews where I’ve had managers saying stuff like, you know, when you’re, when you’re into it, you’re amazing and you turn out stuff that like we never would have even expected and you do it really quick. Like you do ten times more work than we we’re expecting like a third of the time. But when you don’t want to do it, like, you just don’t do it.
Callie [01:50:30] You can not be forced, like you just can not do it at all.
Nichole [01:50:34] And I’m like, first of all, obviously. You literally just said, like, I don’t want to do it.
Callie [01:50:41] Yeah. Yeah.
Nichole [01:50:45] But yeah, it was really interesting. Like in that video learning about our motivation styles, yeah motivation for us might be different, but there is like a lot of similarity there as well where like for me it takes, for autistic people, it takes a lot, it takes like us a long time to build up to doing something. But once we start doing it, usually we can do it forever to the point where I could be a problem. Right, like it can actually be hard to stop. And I think for you, it was similar, right? Like, you need those like motivational planks to like be able to get into a project and then once you’re into it, you need to… The challenge for you at that, like for me, keeping my attention on the project is not an issue. For you it is.
Callie [01:51:37] Yeah.
Nichole [01:51:37] So it’s like we have, but you can also be hyperfocused if it’s the right project and like lose sight of everything else. So it’s very, like, similar but slightly different. And I just think like, you know, it just goes back too to the recent episode about youth oppression in schools, and I kind of worry that I didn’t phrase stuff around ADHD the way I wanted to in that episode, but this is kind of what I was trying to get to, is that like schools are supposed to screen for people who can do work that they don’t want to do on a regular schedule, which is not Callie or I. Right? And then when you can’t, they’re like often, you know, oh, this kid has ADHD, put them on medication. Which medication can be extremely helpful, I’m not vilifying it. But it’s interesting that a lot of the treatment for kids with ADHD isn’t actually around like helping them feel fulfilled or feel like they have control and they’re executing things the way they want to. It’s about like making them fit into the same worker box as everyone else if that makes sense.
Nichole [01:52:47] Because I think like for you, also for me, this is helping you be aware of, like, how you could work differently and also what kind of work you’d want to do. Right, it’s about like finding joy in what you’re doing. And that’s not what school does. School is like, listen, life is shit. You all have to work. The work is going to be boring. So let’s figure out who can do that without complaining.
Callie [01:53:09] Yeah. It’s gonna be boring. Unnecessary. A lot of busywork. I mean, look at how similar schooling is versus like the kind of jobs we’re expected to get as adults, you know? And anyone who doesn’t fit into that is like a behavioral problem in the same way that then they don’t, like then you don’t deserve a good job or a good living. Like, I’ve even had thoughts recently of like, oh, well, if this is the kind of worker I am, then like maybe I don’t, like maybe I need to, like, scale back, like what I deserve in life. You know, even things like do I need to like, move out of having my own place? Because like, you know, can I, should I, should I not be making enough to be able to, like, live on my own? You know, and it’s like that shouldn’t… It’s just so fucked up, like all of these ideas of like, oh, if you don’t, if you can’t earn it in the way everyone else can earn it, then like you don’t deserve it. And yeah, it’s really…
Nichole [01:54:10] Violent.
Callie [01:54:11] Violent. Such a good word for it. Yeah.
Nichole [01:54:15] Yeah and at the risk of sounding incredibly privileged right now so like, I’m saying that not sarcastically, I mean this, you know, I just got texted this week by someone I used to work with who’s moved to a new company and she was like, hey, I’m at this new company and we’re hiring for a learning experience designer. Like, are you interested? And I was like, no, like not even a little bit. And like, honestly, I’m unemployed. I don’t have any income. I’m living off savings right now. It’s probably like not wise, I guess, to pass up like a good paying full-time job. But I have realized, like, if I can make it work, then, first of all, this work is really what I want to do. But if I can’t make this sustain me then taking on projects that are interesting to me is my backup plan, you know, or what I’ll supplement with. And that’s just, like this was even before I realized that I was autistic. But like that is just, like I realized that’s how I want to work. That is what brings me joy. I actually do really like the kind of work that I do. I just don’t like being stuck in a company. And I don’t like having you do whatever boring ass day to day shit that comes through.
Callie [01:55:34] Time fillers, yeah.
Nichole [01:55:36] Yeah. So I’m like, just let me be hired for projects that are interesting to me, that challenge me, where I’ll learn something new. And I’ll be engaged and I’ll do like a really fucking good job and then I can take a few months off and then I can get another project. Like that is how I work and our country, I was going to say isn’t set up for that, we kind of are now in a way because we do so much contracting. But it’s still not, like I don’t have health care, like I’m still sacrificing a lot to have that so we’re not, like, really actually set up for that.
Nichole [01:56:12] But yeah, just jobs in general, like why aren’t they structured more that way? Why isn’t it structured more for like, oh this person actually really likes monotonous work. And I hope, I’m not saying monotonous like in a derogatory way, but some people really genuinely enjoy like admin or data entry or whatever, like repetitive work. And then there’s people like me who it’s like I need to be like challenged and I need to, you know, have my brain explode and I need to like be like playing with stuff and picking apart and try to problem-solve or create something new. And like, we’re all super useful. So, like, why can’t we just do what we’re good at? And what brings us joy? But no, because you got to sit at a desk for 40 plus hours a week and do all like, ridiculous stuff that doesn’t actually matter.
Callie [01:57:02] Yeah, because the sad truth is it’s not about finding the ways that we can all really shine and contribute. It’s about just controlling us all. It’s about putting us on a 40-hour schedule so that we’re too tired to fight the system. You know, we’re too trapped into consumerism and having to keep up with the Joneses. You know, with new cars and new toys and new TV’s and a bigger house, every time you get a raise, you know, and it’s… Yeah. The way, instead of giving us all the space when we’re younger to find the thing that we’re really good at. Like, I’m really great under a deadline and in a project, like I’m fuckin fire, you know?
Nichole [01:57:46] Yeah you are. You’re really good.
Callie [01:57:47] But like, don’t count on me day-to-day to be available to you. You know, like, I’m just, I’m not, I’m sorry. And it’s like that’s, I’m laughing now because I’ve had so much fucking shame around that, you know, for so long. And I just realized, like… But like trying to find a job, like even if I was like, okay, now like I know that’s what I’d be good at or whatever. Like, so many people would be like that’s risky or it’s dangerous, like just try to find a steady paycheck. You know, like I was thinking that when you were describing your whole, like, wanting to find projects that are like inspiring to you. You work really hard for short bursts of time and then you get to take time off afterwards. Like people would just be like, you know, that’s so fucking entitled and childish and like it’s risky.
Nichole [01:58:37] Which is like…
Callie [01:58:37] You know? And it’s just, it shouldn’t be that way.
Nichole [01:58:43] I know. Well, and if you think about it, it does make sense because like in order to potentially have this kind of lifestyle, I have completely cut down, I probably like halved my spending.
Callie [01:58:55] Good for you.
Nichole [01:58:56] Well, I mean, part of it was like paying off debts and stuff too. So it’s like…
Callie [01:59:00] Yeah, but still.
Nichole [01:59:02] But yeah. And I’ve just gotten down to where like I can live off like, relatively because it’s still San Diego, very little money. And so I could take a project that pays like five to ten thousand dollars and then be good for like months, you know, and just need a few projects a year. A handful of projects year like two to three, two to four. And yeah, other people might see that as like immature or something. But I think also a lot of other people would see that as like, well, why wouldn’t you want, like if you could go, I could go into a job and I could probably eventually make six figures. I couldn’t start at that right now, but I could start at like a really decent salary. But it’s like it’s, I have no life. I literally spend everything that I have at work. And then I come home and I don’t even have the energy to, like, shower. It’s bad. Like, I have to take I have to lay down for three hours after work to like make dinner. It’s, I have no life. And you know, like so to me, like, why isn’t it worth it? I have a better quality of life on less pay if I live this way. But people see it as like you’re not living your full potential or like you’re not having as good of a life as you could. And it’s like but I actually have like a way better life.
Callie [02:00:24] And what’s gonna happen in the future? People get all oooh. And it’s like, I don’t fucking know! The death of capitalism is my retirement.
Nichole [02:00:34] I don’t know! But it’s like, you don’t know either! Exactly. Yeah. Like, if someone… If the financial industry crashes and I still had my 401(k).
Callie [02:00:43] Girl.
Nichole [02:00:45] And like, money ends up not being a thing anymore. Do you know how fucking pissed I’d be? No. Cash that shit out. I’m living my life. And I feel like I’m actually being very responsible because I’m actually creating like a pretty sustainable, like as sustainable as I can control, life for myself. You know, I live in a very small, relatively rent-controlled apartment. I have my costs down to like next to nothing and I have a skill that I can contract out when I need to. And I also have this thing that I’m trying desperately to grow into something more, you know, sustainable. And like, I’m fucking happy. I’m really fucking happy. I’m not fully recovered, but like, my health is getting better and I’m starting to like, actually get shit done that I’ve literally wanted to do for years. Like eight fucking years that I never was able to do. And these are small things like cleaning out my hallway closet. You know, and I just feel like life is worth living right now. Whereas last year it was like I had to just completely numb myself out and not even like, have any wants or needs because I was just so exhausted. And it was like if I thought about it, I would just get into like, a really dark place and I would feel like I couldn’t do it anymore. So I had to just like, turn into a robot, shut everything off and just like put one foot in front of the other every day.
Callie [02:02:10] And again, I mean yours was obviously more extreme than other people because of your chronic illness and because you realized you’re autistic. Right but like, but that is the point. Like that state that you’re in is the point. And that’s what I wish more people understood. We have so much internal shame over not being able to meet these standards and like, still live a good life. And it’s like, but the thing that even we can forget as anticapitalists is like, we’re not supposed to be able to. Being tired and crushed by the system is exactly how the system wants us to feel. You know, it’s about, it’s about working such a long day and having a commute that by the time you get home, you order takeout because you just can’t bring yourself to like grocery shop and cook and take care of yourself in a healing way. So then you spend more money. So then you realize you can’t leave your job because look at how much money you’re spending every month, you know?
Nichole [02:03:12] Yeah, exactly.
Callie [02:03:14] Yeah. Postmates alone was a huge chunk of fucking income.
Nichole [02:03:20] Yup.
Callie [02:03:20] Do you know how much money I have spent?
Nichole [02:03:22] And it’s like my job had me traveling about a third time and there were so many expenses that come along with that that aren’t technically covered.
Callie [02:03:34] Yeah.
Nichole [02:03:35] Right? Like better travel equipment and like travel size things of everything. Like, you know, not stuff that they would cover, but stuff that they wouldn’t cover like makeup or whatever. And then yeah, and then I would get into the mode of like eating takeout all the time so I would get home and I’m fucking zonked and I like never eat takeout like on my own. And last year I was eating takeout constantly because I was so used to expensing it and it just became habit that like I would just order takeout at home. And not judging it, but it just was like a cost, like it was a huge cost that, there’s, I couldn’t expense it because technically I was like off work by that time because I was back home. But it was like the travel was directly impacting my spending habits. And yeah, that’s where like, again, willpower comes in where people are like, well, just like prep food before you go.
Callie [02:04:31] No.
Nichole [02:04:31] Or like, just do blah blah blah. And it’s like, no.
Callie [02:04:34] Death to willpower!
Nichole [02:04:38] I can’t. Yeah, fuck that. And it’s like, or-
Callie [02:04:39] So their answer to you being tired and exhausted is spend more time, like meal prepping? Cool.
Nichole [02:04:46] Yep. But Callie, it’s just about time management.
Callie [02:04:49] Oh, right right, yeah.
Nichole [02:04:49] Is where the time comes in, is where… Yep. So anyway, I think for me the last thing I want to mention, I could probably talk about all this for like several more hours, but, on brand! And I’m sure-
Callie [02:05:06] This is definitely not the only episode we’re gonna be doing about this and yeah there’s the after-party, so.
Nichole [02:05:11] Yeah. So I just want to again, really encourage anyone who is thinking about ADHD or autism or both. They actually are often in people together. Please look at the resources that we link because I think they’re all great. And I did want to mention something I found really fascinating was that with autism, one of the reasons that it’s underdiagnosed in people conditioned female is because they think that women are taught to watch for other people’s like facial cues and stuff more. Like you have it ingrained in you that like to be safe or to be accepted you have to behave a certain way. Whereas, like boys obviously get a lot more leeway for their behavior. And a lot of it’s just like boys will be boys.
Nichole [02:06:06] And I did read in there that there was a black woman who said, like being black and a woman, like I, like my literal life and survival depends on me interpreting what kind of mood someone’s in or what they mean by what they’re saying or like how they’re coming at me. And I think that that’s like, I just found it very chilling, obviously. But I just think it’s like something to really consider if you’re a person who like, you have, because that’s what I struggle the most with, is like how well I can mask. And I think a big part of it for me was that I grew up in a house that was not safe. And so I learned that it was like very critical for me to interpret people’s moods and get very good at knowing what kind of mindset someone was in or how they were coming at me or if their tone was like, angry. So I think that that’s something to think about too when you’re considering all of this, is that like just because you are very adaptable does not mean that you’re not this thing. It doesn’t invalidate, you know, that this could be how your brain works. It just might mean you’re a person who very sadly learned that their survival depended on developing really strong coping mechanisms.
Callie [02:07:33] A thousand percent. I’m so glad you said that, that we got that on the episode because I think that’s crucially important. And I think similarly with ADHD, it’s a lot the same thing. Right, like young girls are expected to meet standards that oftentimes young boys are not. And so a lot of, a lot of the behaviors aren’t… Like boys being kind of more acceptable that they’re bouncing off the walls. Right, because like, boys will be boys and they’re, boys are just so rambunctious and stuff and girls are just really, like, strictly taught not to act out in certain ways that boys are allowed to. And I think you can just develop these coping skills, you know? Like in your head, your brain may be racing all over the place, you know, but you’re not allowed to, like, act out in a way that people assigned male at birth are. And it’s just different, you know? And that’s why I think there, like we’re learning how much, you know, people assigned female at birth are really like, crucially underdiagnosed for both autism and ADHD. And a lot of it is because of the social pressure that we put on girls at an extremely young age, you know?
Nichole [02:08:57] Yeah. Yeah and that was something in that article as well, was that one of the people they interviewed was saying that they think that the way that people approach autism is really dangerous for, like genderqueer people because there’s so much binary coding to it. And like people who are assigned female at birth, like only get noticed if their symptoms are very, or their expressions are very severe and/or they’re acting like boys act. So it’s like this weird thing where it’s like if you’re acting the way a girl is supposed to act, then you don’t, you kind of get ignored. But there’s also this feeling that if you’re acting like a boy’s acting then they like pathologize that.
Callie [02:09:49] Yeah, yeah.
Nichole [02:09:50] You know? And not saying that, like, I hope like my meaning is clear with that. That, you know, it’s like this coded thing like, oh, she’s behaving like a boy, there must be something wrong with her. And then you, like, get the diagnosis that you need but it’s almost in this weird way where your behavior and gender is being policed. And then, you know, so many go undiagnosed because they learned early on that they have to act like girls and they get good at that. And then nobody thinks that they’re struggling when they actually are struggling quite a bit. You know?
Callie [02:10:21] Yeah. Yeah. And obviously, I mean, we talked a lot earlier about how this was subjective. But a lot of this also relates to, like, you know, all of the other things that we experience in our lives and the way those all kind of like mesh together and it is hard to find where one thing starts and the other thing stops, you know? I mean, obviously experiencing trauma at a young age and living in an abusive household, like that’s going to figure… So there, it’s all very kind of messy. And so, yeah, you don’t want to just boil this down too much and be like, oh, all of these things don’t actually exist for me. It’s just this one thing, you know, but I think it can all work together. Like a lot of these things like social anxiety and chronic illness and eating disorders, like a lot of these things that you’re realizing you, like depression, have suffered from, could actually have kind of been tied to being autistic. Right, and yet you get these, like, piecemeal kind of diagnoses which like are true, but also like probably were from the root of being autistic and no one knowing and being able to address that. So it’s all really hard.
Callie [02:11:34] And for me, like with my stuff, yeah, I don’t know how much relates to, like, you know, the trauma I’ve experienced or my eating disorder or any of that. And that’s why getting a diagnosis can be subjective. And like you said, we don’t want to necessarily like pathologize to too much of a degree, right, like, certain things. Like yeah, young girls, like assigned female at birth acting like boys and then being like, oh, she’s autistic. And it’s like she could also just be genderqueer or she could be both, you know, like yeah it’s-
Nichole [02:12:06] Or neither.
Callie [02:12:10] Or neither. Yeah.
Nichole [02:12:12] Yeah, yeah. And it was very interesting in that article because they talked about, they’re actually studying like the brain patterns of autistic girls now, like having identified that they’re autistic, and finding that like nothing they thought about them was true because they thought that the brain patterns of autistic girls would match brain patterns of autistic boys. But what they’re finding is, let’s say, female brains as shorthand, but female brains with autism at the same age, this is in kids I don’t remember exactly how old. An autistic female brain will mimic the patterns of a typical boy brain. And I, that just kind of blew my mind because I’ve always felt that I think like boys, like when I just never understood the separation of, like, male logic. I was like, this is just how my brain works. And I never really saw any difference between, like, guys being funnier. You know, that whole thing, like, just all of it just felt weird to me. And I always just felt like I was on the same, you know like I always felt like I had a boy brain. And now it’s kind of like I kind of do have a boy brain.
Nichole [02:13:29] And this is all very binary and obviously, like I don’t mean any of this too seriously, but it is interesting. And that’s just the genderqueer part of the article was so interesting to me because I’m like this like fucking lines up so much with like how I felt and my internal experience. And now there’s like actually some science behind it to be like this is valid. And I don’t need that. But it doesn’t hurt. You know, after just feeling so different, so confused, and like I said, I would get so much gender dysphoria from people not taking my thoughts seriously because I am female presenting, or used to be at least. That like, I don’t know, I just kind of all, like I don’t have it fully figured out, but it’s just like more pieces to the puzzle and it’s just starting to like really make more sense about some stuff. And I’m starting to wonder if the body dysmorphia I always had is a blend of like autism and like gender dysphoria. You know, just having a brain that works differently and like has different patterns than people I was being compared to and then also, like, just being genderqueer.
Callie [02:14:36] Yeah.
Nichole [02:14:38] It’s a wild ride. And like, if I can dismantle that, like if I can get rid of that or like at least decrease it, my life will be so much fucking better cause it hurts. It like, it sucks all the time. And I basically have had to divorce myself from my looks and my body and everything just to like live. So it’s like if I can crack that code and find some relief? Like, wow. Fuck the patriarchy.
Callie [02:15:04] Fuck it!
Nichole [02:15:04] Too long, didn’t listen, fuck the white supremacist patriarchy.
Callie [02:15:10] And I just, like I, god I, we’ll have to save this for the after-party.
Nichole [02:15:15] I know. I was going to say we should probably, because otherwise we’ll just keep talking.
Callie [02:15:18] Yeah.
Nichole [02:15:21] But yeah. So in closing, OK so for reals for reals, next week we’re doing queer anarchism. We’re extremely excited because this is going to be foundational to like everything we do after this. So get ready. That’s coming.
Callie [02:15:40] Yeah.
Nichole [02:15:41] We decided we’re giving Callie a deadline because that’s how she works best.
Callie [02:15:50] Yep.
Nichole [02:15:50] Yep. And we’re not feeling shame about it, right?
Callie [02:15:54] No, no.
Nichole [02:15:55] We’re optimizing how your brain works. So, yeah, I’m like, honestly to me this is gonna be a huge episode for us. I think it’s gonna be like a really landmark episode. So get ready for that. I can’t wait. If you want to join us on the livestream, that’s every Sunday at 12:00 p.m. Pacific Time. Otherwise, you know, we post the episodes every Tuesday, early morning our time. And we do have our Ask a Bitch series on YouTube as well that we live stream every Thursday at 5:00 p.m. Pacific Time and we need questions for that. So it’s basically an advice column. I never know what to call it. Like an advice… Series? I don’t know. Where we answer questions and engage with people in real-time. It’s really fun. But yeah, we need some questions so if you have any questions you’d like us to answer, send them to firstname.lastname@example.org.
Nichole [02:16:54] We did get asked if we’re ever going to put those up on the podcast and the answer is maybe. We’ve switched the format several times so I’m kind of waiting to see what sticks. But yeah, let us know if that’s something you’d prefer to listen to in a podcast format, then we could think about, those are usually about an hour, we could think about putting that up on the podcast as well.
Callie [02:17:18] Yeah, maybe.
Nichole [02:17:19] But only if it’s worth. It’s a lot, it’s extra work.
Callie [02:17:22] Yeah, yeah.
Nichole [02:17:25] Well, those we’d probably just put uncut.
Callie [02:17:27] Yeah, I know.
Nichole [02:17:27] I would just like pull the video and, yeah.
Callie [02:17:30] Still though.
Nichole [02:17:30] Yeah. I also don’t know if it’s gonna muck up the feed. Like should we start a different thing for it? So anyway, right now that’s our little enticement to get you to come to YouTube where we’re trying to get more followers. So go to YouTube. Go to the YouTube. Remember when that was cute? Remember when we still were excited about that? Go to the YouTube and search Bitchy Shitshow and you’ll find us.
Callie [02:17:55] Yeah we’re trying to get to a thousand subscribers. So if you want to subscribe to us on there, that helps. And if you’re looking for other ways to support the show and love that we are putting out so much content for y’all, because we are. Listen, we’re doing it twice a week, that’s a lot.
Nichole [02:18:14] We’re just going to be assholes now. Very demanding.
Callie [02:18:18] Not demanding! Listen, trying to get what…
Nichole [02:18:22] I’m joking.
Callie [02:18:23] Yeah, I know.
Nichole [02:18:23] We’re gonna be a bunch of fucking uppity bitches.
Callie [02:18:26] Yeah, but if you would like to support our show, we have a Patreon, you can support us there at patreon.com/bitchyshitshow and become a monthly subscriber. Or you can also send us one time donations through PayPal. And also you can rate us on iTunes. That always helps. It helps us with the algorithms so we get suggested to more people, go ahead and rate us five stars. If you don’t feel we are five stars, don’t even rate or comment. Just don’t do it
Nichole [02:18:55] Don’t fuckin do it. It’s just rude.
Callie [02:18:57] We don’t need to see it. We don’t care. Move along.
Nichole [02:19:02] Yeah, move along.
Callie [02:19:03] Alright well, we love y’all. We hope this episode was cathartic, or maybe eye-opening for some of y’all and we will definitely be talking about this more in the future. But thank you for allowing us to share something like this with y’all. I mean, we try to create safe spaces for you and we appreciate that you try to hold those safe spaces for us because this is some deeply personal shit.
Nichole [02:19:29] Yeah. And as nervous as we were to do this episode, we were mostly just really excited cause we knew that it would just be well received and that, like, people would resonate with it. So per the livestream so far, it’s been an amazing experience and I’m really excited to get feedback after the podcast itself goes live.
Callie [02:19:48] Yes.
Nichole [02:19:49] Yeah.
Callie [02:19:50] Alright y’all, well…
Nichole [02:19:50] Alright y’all.
Callie [02:19:51] Talk to you next week.
Nichole [02:19:53] Buh bye.